6G Celicas Forums

The bearing on the superstrut lower control arm where it mounts to the body is very different to the mcpherson strut bushing here, on the ss lower control arm once the arm is cast, they machine the end that joins to the body, it forms one half of the spherical bearing, so its actually machined from the control arm, the centre of the bearing is then put into the arm, and the other half of the bearing then pressed in. The bearing isnt a seperate peice and cant be swapped or replaced once its done the arms only fit for the bin. The banana arm bushing you could replace, i beleive some people in the uk have done that.

Those roll centre adjusters look good, It aint going to cure the downsides of mcpherson struts but should help correct the geometry after lowering, that must be mega low to need them though!!

be interesting to see if you can get those rebuilt, where the camber control arm bolts to the body its a spherical bearing, so unless its worn, going to a poly bush will likely be worse for handling, could be negligable though. I've looked into having it replaced with a spherical bearing for my gen 5 celica because it needs a different inner diameter to the gen 6 mounting point, the arm itself is one half of the bearings casing, so it would need machined and then a new bearing pressed or shrunk in there, and then you just end up where you started, could be cheaper to just buy a new arm by the time you do all that, even if your just going polybush there, you'll need to machine the arm. The camber control arm has a greater freedom of movement to rotate and twist than the macstrut wishbone which just rotates, hence why its a spherical bearing and not a rubber bush.

where the banana arm meets the body it in theory should be the same as the macstrut, so the polybush might be compatible, the only thing i'd watch is that the superstrut go's through a little more range of motion, it shouldnt be an issue though, i'm sure i've heard of people doing this and it being an improvement on the st205

I have an opened st205 front shock, the insert is very narrow, narrower than the strut casing which pinches a little about half way down to hold it in place. If you wanted to use a wider shock insert it would just be case of cutting out the pinch section and welding in straight pipe, no different really to the way lots of people make custom coilovers.

I think for springs normal st202 lowering springs will work on a superstrut celica, some guys on ccuk have seen superstrut cars with normal st202 lowering springs on and they were fine. I wouldnt put st202 springs on an st205 though as the spring rates will be too far apart.

interesting counterpoint to the often repeated fact that the rally team dropped superstrut (despite it being nothing like the road cars), the btcc carina's during the 90's used superstrut suspension, so they obviously though it was worth it, how close it is to the road going versions who knows, but they obviously thought it worth something, being all circuit racing.

also regarding the rally team dropping superstrut, its of some relevance that the 2008 on subaru wrc rally cars did not feature the double wishbone rear suspension, reverting back to mack struts, as do the wrc ford focus i beleive with there rear suspension, and the same for the mitsubishi evo, i dont know the details in each case but in that context the argument seems somewhat short sighted.

I used cusco top mounts front and rear with superstrut trd coilovers, dunno if tien would be any different, but would be surprised if they are, why not try get some cusco ones.

the blacktop intake valves are 35mm vs 34.5mm for the redtop (all previous 3s engines are 33.5mm), i'll need to check the exhaust i cant remember off the top of my head. The blacktop valves are titanium and apparently half the weight of redtop valves. The difference between the redtop/blacktop are more a combination of slightly larger valves, and slightly more compression, the difference in power isnt great but the blacktop is setup to make its power slightly higher up the revs, hence more compression and bigger lighter valves, peak power is 600rpm higher, unlikely to gain much in the way of power from using a blacktop but the end product should show better results than the power difference would suggest. In either case both blacktop/redtop respond very well to an aftermarket ecu so its always the best place to put your money first imo.

There is nothing to stop you shoving a blacktop head on a redtop engine, the head casting is the same, except for the water ways, and thats easy to account for with a small blanking plate, and just drop the exhaust vvti controller for a solid cam gear. Although as usual you'd have to weight that up against just having some headwork done to the redtop head.

Ultimatly there is little to gain from starting with a blacktop, or even using the blacktop at any point, it'll be better, but by how much and how much extra pain did you need to go through lol. I'm not going any further at the moment with mine as i'm satisfied its going to work, but really want to build it for boost, so its sitting ready to be torn down again when i can afford some nice forged internals for it. I had it in and running to the point i could drive around, but had issues with the fueling and the throttle body, so no power over 3000rpm, both of which i'm sure some more time/money investment would solve, but as i want to run aftermarket ecu in the long term they wont be a problem at that point.

the setup i used was

blacktop head and block, complete with blacktop water ways and head gasket
redtop oilpickup, windage tray and sump.
redtop inlet manifold and throttle body
redtop tensioner and idler pulley

I was able to retain the blacktop water ways as i had the room for the pipes, if you have to convert to redtop water ways then you also need to change the blacktop head gasket for a redtop, as the gasket alters the water flow through the block. Really you end up using so many redtop parts, it will probably cost you twice as much as just doing a redtop, and thats a lot of extra cash that could have been spent upgrading the redtop, i managed to do mine for about the same cost as a redtop, simply because i was lucky and paid peanuts for the blacktop, but i've never seen another that cheap since, they are all two and half times the price i paid for mine, so it kind of made sense to have a go, but i wouldnt recomend it!. If your going beams with the intent of turbocharging, then its reallly hard to see past a greytop beams, the only difference between it and a redtop is the greytop exhaust manifold has pre cats built in, but your chucking it away anyway, so doesnt matter.

3way here is a pic of the blacktop before i dropped it into my gen 5. All i've changed is the tensioner and idler pulley, didnt change the water/oilpumps or anything else as i used a redtop beams sump. You'll only need to swap the oil pump over if you use a different sump to the beams, as the beams oil pump has a recess for the crankshaft angle sensor so wont match up to the non beams sumps. Your still going to have the problem on a gen 6 that the exhaust vvti controller sticks out so far it will try and physically occupy the same space as the engine mount.



the blacktop beams does use a returnless fuel system, the ecu controls the pump, if you want to use the blacktop ecu then you will either need to retrofit the altezza pump in place of your own, or add a small tank with the altezza pump in it and a lift pump from your tank to the smaller tank, or simplest just alter the fuel rail to make it a return system and add an adjustable pressure regulator.

The altezza is drive by wire also. If your putting it in a celica and using a redtop inlet manifold then the throttle body wont match. I'm not going any further with my blacktop/redtop hybrid justnow as when i pick up that project again i will use aftermarket ecu, but if i was to continue where i left off i'd save myself a major headache and just drop the exhaust vvti controller for a fixed cam gear and run the whole thing on a stock redtop beams ecu as they are easy to work with, and its pretty easy to adapt the blacktop loom for it although you need different coilpacks. There really is nothing but pain in starting with a blacktop over a redtop!.

I dont really see why not, although the water elbow might need some modification to fit i'd need to check.

as for rev 3 3s exhaust cam, i've never tried sitting it in the journals on a beams head, i dont have a spare 3s cam at the moment they are all bolted up in engines, i have that spare beams head though i could take measurements from if its helpfull of the cam journals etc.

next to the oil filter on the blacktop is a series of oil ways that are blocked with little grub screws( actually some may be cast but not tapped i cant remember), that'll be what they are reffering too, the redtop sump has this also, its not actually on the block but rather the aluminium part of the two part sump, and where they talk about feeding in the oil return from the turbo is on both beams they have a large rubber hose that runs from the gearbox end of the head an down into the sump, its there to allow any oil collecting at that side of the head to drain into the sump.

cant really read anything into those power figures, who knows at what point the cams might need to be changed for more power, and anyway you can still get vvti cams from toda and trd if you want, you'd want a non vvti cam for the exhaust side anyway and there is quite a lot of choice there, less so for the intake side with vvti but still toda do a 268 and trd a 282 duration cam or you could go with a cam from mr booth i'm pretty sure he just gets trd or toda cams and puts his own grind on them anyway.

If your at the power levels the beams cam becomes a restriction i think getting the right cam grind is probably not going to be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

not really convinced about the idea of going with 2jz pistons either unless it works out mega cheap, would rather go with custom forged pistons from the likes of JE, which isnt too different in price to forged 3s-gte pistons from the quotes i had, or arias have a part number i'm sure for forged beams pistons, by the time you've payed for the machining work on the 2jz pistons and rods it might not be any different. If your feeling flush also g.booth can supply them or you could use toda pistons.

i'm pretty sure one guy who has used a blacktop block with rev 3 3s-gte head is on this forum but i cant remember his name lol. I dont have those cam specs, the only person i can think of who might have that is g.booth. Also i'm sure the beams engines use high impedence injectors, same as the zz engines.

I think its worth noting that it seems to be a waste of money going for expensive aftermarket cambelts or head gaskets with the beams, the oem ones are very good items, both the one i linked above and the ~300bhp na engines g.booth builds use oem beams headgaskets and belts.

its best to start with a greytop beams tbh as they are the cheapest variant, and identical for this purpose to a redtop, use the whole engine and insert forged pistons and rods, get an exhaust manifold fabricated for turbo, bigger injectors, and tune it with an aftermarket ecu and you'll have a great turbo engine.

here is a nice example, keeping in mind it was due more mapping, had a 2.5 inch downpipe and a stock mr2 turbo exhaust, it shows the beams has a lot of potential in a turbocharged application.

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...urbo-beams.html

probably vvt kicking in, i'm not clued up on the 4a-ge engines to be honest but unless they changed to vvti for the blacktop after the silvertop 4a-ge then its just vvt, not vvti, which essentialy is a system that is switched on at a given rpm, so in the 4a-ge engines it does kick in, its not the same as the constantly variable vvti of the blacktop/redtop beams and the zz series engines.

yeah the sump parts can be modified to fit for sure with some metal work, i have seen a rev 3 sump modified to fit a rev 5 oil pump, wasnt pretty though lol but worked and probably better than using a blacktop sump because the oilpickup will be in the right place for transverse, personally i would just use the right sump for whatever i was doing though, so if using a beams oil pump use a redtop sump, its already the perfect fit for a 6th gen, and if using a 3s-gte oil pump use a rev 3 3s-gte sump.

the vvti on the beams isnt a one shot like the older vvt on the 4age engines, the ecu adjusts the cam phasing from 0rpm to the limiter depending on various things, i'm not sure what they all are cause you cant access the ecu, but from memory when i used the power-fc and the from the other ecu's i've looked at its i think by rpm and load, you just set a value which is the advance or retard of the cam relative to the crankshaft, so you just set it and the ecu controls the solenoid that feeds the oil pressure to the cam controller, so its whatever you set in the ecu, and unnaffected by things like boost pressure.

the st205 blocks were revised at some point due to wall thickness, later blocks will be similar to the beams blocks, seen plenty of early blocks split a cylinder wall as soon as the boost is increased.

for the blacktop exhaust controller simply removing the cam cover wont work, even in the st182 the clearence is minimal, pretty sure its impossible in a st20x without doing something with the engine mount, or dropping the exhaust vvti, i never tried it myself, i just had a look and thought no way..

vvti on the beams has nothing to do with manifold pressure, the vvti controller is driven by the ecu alone, and the beams dont even have a map sensor to read manifold pressure, it will alter the valve angle to whatever you set in the ecu tables.

I believe although i've never seen it done myself you can actually fit a beams head on a 3s-gte block and it'll work (not sure how true that is), but your compression ratio will be over 12:1 or something like that, the beams has a smaller combustion chamber than previous 3s engines.

you'd really need a programmable ecu for a boosted beams, if you were hybriding an earlier 3s-ge using 3s-gte parts you can use a 3s-gte ecu, but for a beams turbo your really going to need to either run very little boost something like 5psi at most or go aftermarket. Anyway redtop beams wiring is sooo easy, much easier to deal with than older 3s engines, blacktop beams however is a nightmare lol.

I dont think you can mix and match sump parts, i would think you need to use a complete sump be it in two parts or one, from the same engine along with the appropriate oil pump as they will match up.

I can check some of these things if you guys have questions as I have at the moment a rev 2 3s-gte, and a beams blacktop that i've converted to redtop in the garage at the moment, i dont have the blacktop sump or intake manifold anymore though, and i've got a rev 3 3s-gte in my st205 to compare. I also keep a bare blacktop head for measuring purposes.

if you mean what i said then no, st162 inlet manifold is an alternative to the centre feed inlet manifold of the st185, its side feed and seems to be an improvement, the tvis heads have huge inlet ports on them so you need a manifold that will match that, these large ports are undesirable really, the rev 2 3s-gte has very large port openings which taper down very aggrsivly to the valves and its not good for flow. Hence why the small port rev 2 3s-ge head is a better starting point when doing a ground up engine build.

The exhaust manifold stud patterns are the same between the na and turbo versions of each revision, they however change on each revision, so rev 2 3s-gte manifold fits a rev 2 3s-ge, and so on, this isnt true however of the 4th gen 4s-gte, which shares its stud pattern with the rev 3 3s-gte, whilst the 4th and 5th gen 3s-ge's both share a unique manifol stud pattern for both intake and exhaust.

as for vvti/vtec they are different things, the vtec is two seperate sets of cam lobes on one cam, and it switched between them at a set rpm, vvti alters the phasing of the cam, so the cam timing relative to the crankshaft, and it does this constantly changing depending on throttle input and rpm.

vvti is a power gain, it allows you to run a more aggresive cam for better top end, whilst being able to vary the cam phasing means you can retain or gain lower to mid range power that would have been otherwise lost from the more aggresive cam. In a forced induction engine it allows you to tune the cam timing for different rpms so you can help build boost sooner and extend the power band of the engine. In the past vvti was seen as an added complication but its so prevelant among cars now that its not a problem anymore and is a definite gain.

the vvti 3s-ge heads are a different casting to previous 3s heads, both the redtop and blacktop are the same with some minor differences in water outlets, they are however a unique casting in relation to the previous 3s engines, they have a narrower valve angle and the head is in general a lot narrower than previous 3s variants, and as i've mentioned before they have a unique stud pattern. Block wise they are the same as previous 3s engines, apart from they have an extra oil feed to the head for the vvti, i'm not sure if that could be added to a pre beams block, either way unless your stroking and need a 5s block it doesnt matter as the beams blocks are reputed to be the strongest castings of 3s engines to date, and the same as the motorsport blocks, altezza blocks have been used in gt-fours as a basis for rebuilds due to this, but using rev 3 head and sump. The blacktop has apparently the highest output oil pump due to the two vvti controllers which are oil pressure driven, but in order to use that oil pump on a non beams engine you will need a redtop sump, as both the sump and the oilpump have a recess for the crank angle sensor. Due to the head being narrower the vvti heads also need a different timing belt.

you can mix and match the heads as much as you like but obviously only the beams blocks have the vvti feed, and you will need compatible manifolds for whichever head you use, but you can fit normal cam gears instead and lose the vvti, you'd probably still gain power thanks to the newer head casting and inlet manifold etc, the valves are larger as standard on the vvti head as well as some nice features such as sodium filled exhaust valves on the redtop and titanium inlet valves on the blacktop which are 1.5mm larger than a 3s-gte. If you wanted to fit a blacktop into a celica though you need to swap the manifolds/sump/oilpickup and depending what you do with the water ways you may need to change the headgasket for a redtop. The exhaust side vvti controller will clash with the engine mount on that side but in all honesty it doesnt gain you much so fitting a normal cam gear instead would be a simple fix. Redtop obviously doesnt have that issue.

If you were building the ultimate 3s-gte you'd start with a redtop or blacktop/redtop hybrid and retain inlet vvti. Hks back in 99 used a redtop beams engine built for turbo to set the fwd drag record in a celica, although at the time they chose not to use vvti, understandable in a drag car as your only interested in a narrow power band. For any full on 3s-gte engine build that is going to require headwork, ie larger valves and more aggressive cams, it is worth thinking about instead of spending the money on the head, spending it on a redtop as the starting point due to its already 1m oversized valves, and more aggressive cams, and it will come with the bonus of inlet vvti, and the strongest block casting, and as an added bonus it already has a crank angle sensor so when you go for an aftermarket ecu, the engine already has the sensors needed in place to run it. the only downside of using the beams for a turbo application is the need to fabricate an exhaust manifold, but for many that isnt a problem.

well the original questions was what is it about the 3s-ge that means you cant/wont turbo it, is it the compression? the answer to which is no, there is nothing to stop you turboing one, your just dealing with a different set of parameters so you'll get a different outcome, as for why you wouldnt well in most cases its simpler and cheaper to start with the 3s-gte version, and just a handfull of cases where you are better of starting with the na 3s-ge.

As for the compression ratio issue itself as i've tried to point out it will affect the maximum boost but it isnt strictly true its a direct relationship between psi and compression ratio as its a relationship affected by the cam timing, compressor efficiency, how effective your charge cooling is, what rpm's the boost is being made at, the weight of the car the engines in, even the gearing. So the results would be variable depending on a bunch of stuff. The rev 3 3s-ge may have a higher comp ratio of 10.3:1 but thats not directly comparable to the 8.5:1 of the rev 3 3s-gte because the na engines cam timing means your losing some pressure out of the cylinders due to later closing of the exhaust valves etc, hence when you calculate the dynamic compression ratio the picture starts to change somewhat, the actual amount of charge that ends up in the cylinder between the two engines is not comparable. The 2zz with its aggressive cams and 11.5:1 comp ratio is a good example of this, they boost well despite there high comp ratio, even 260bhp from the factory with no internal modifications. lol all that assumes you dont blow the headgasket first, which is entierly probable if you boost a rev 2 3s-ge, before you run into detonation problems.

none of that matters as soon as you open up the engine for forged pistons, i'd be more concerned at that point that i have block with decent wall thickness than which particular version of the engine it is.

think i'd prefer the st215 manifold over the acis intake given the option, and with the tvis heads preference would be not to use them and go for a small port head, but i think either the acis manifold or a st162 side feed manifold would be better than the stock tvis one.

not really sure about the acis to be honest, i've seen a 400bhp rev 3 3s-ge and it still had the stock intake manifold but whether acis was still being used i'm not sure

yeah i thought the same before but was happy to find they do have them!.

he is possibly refering to an auto trans model just when i saw AT i wondered was it like at202 rather than st202, its monday morning and i'm a bit slow to get going lol.

I think if your opening up the engine and replacing pistons and doing headwork and generally going to that extent it doesnt matter so much which engine you start with its either down to preference or what you happen to have.

that would be good!, my st205 has a sunroof and the only days when its nice to open it i have hayfever so seal th car up with the ac on lol, so its pointless for me.

Harness bar would also be good but not sure on that one from a safety aspect how would you test it!

Do you still make the carbon fibre c-one lips?

i'm pretty sure na 3s-ge's do have oil squirters, any that i've seen do, i even thought the rev 2 3s-ge did not have them but having been shown some that do i beleive its only the 1st gen 3s-ge that does not have the squirters. It could differ from market to market though so i guess there is no guarentees.

anyway st205wrc you say you have an AT celica? then that would be the 7a-fe engine no?

would be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion it can only handle 8psi tops, and fyi none of my knowledge or theory's come from the internet. Nice argument though, whatever the point is your trying to make .

no one would argue with the two sitting infront of you its more cost effective to start with the 3s-gte, the higher the power you build for though, and the more you spend, the less important it is which one you start with, and in a few cases (such as the gen 2 3s-gte) if your doing a full build then you are better starting with one of the na versions.

also its worth noting that there are people who have done exactly what your saying cant or isnt worth doing, its quite cheap to take an na 3s-ge if thats whats in your car already and using hand-me-down parts from gt-fours such as the manifold/turbo/ecu and some other bits and peices which makes a very cost effective power upgrade if you get the parts cheap enough. It does however require you to know what your talking about.... Ultimately it is not black and white, and the point i was alluding to is that static compression is only one part of a very large puzzle, it is foolish to assume what can and cant be done based solely on that.

vvti doesnt kick in, the i on the end means its always moving, it is programmable based on a various other inputs, it adds a lot to a turbo setup as it can affect exhaust flow, and therefore spool up, and thats a cycle that ends up with more boost earlier and more power.

as for the na engine vs turbo engine it depends on the revision of engine your talking about, the rev 2 na vs rev 2 turbo i'd take the na because the acis head is better than the tvis head as the tvis head has massive ports that taper in badly, but ultimatly once worked enough this isnt that much of an issue, but your still better starting with the na head. the rev 3 engines it doesnt matter. if you leaving it stock, a rev 3 na 3s-ge has the same pistons as a rev 2 3s-gte but with a larger crown for more static compression, and bigger cams that mean in reality there probably isnt a lot in terms of dynamic compression and actual engine endurance between them. I'd wager a rev 3 3s-ge will boost everybit aswell as a rev 2 3s-gte.

beams turbo's despite more agressive cams in terms of lift and duration get on boost sooner, and for much longer than non vvti engines, they can also run higher static compression ratios, this down to a mix of the more agressive cam, and the fact that the cam timing can move around. seriously research dynamic compression ratio, and realise that the static ratio is only one peice of that, its a whole world more complex, your cam timing changes it, your boost pressure changes it, its a whole different game.

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

yeah its too much to convert, i wouldnt like to pay new prices, i picked up a decent whole ss setup from a car that was being broken up and its sitting in my garage as a spare set should i need them, cost me about the same as a new banana arm. A good mcpherson setup will be just that.. good, ultimatly not as good as an ss setup, more comprimised but still good, specially with an lsd. tons cheaper also.

yeah those brakes are the same.