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> Why is the 3s better than the 5s?
post Feb 22, 2013 - 10:22 PM
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homebuilder

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I am considering an engine swap. I see the 3sge and the 3sgte are both more powerful than the 5s. I can understand the turbo one being faster, but why is the 3sge?

I was reading where the 5s was basically a newer improved version of the 3s, but it looks like it is not as fast, is anything about it better?


I have the 5sfe now with a manual. I value reliability, low maintenance and fuel efficiency. Power is great but not the main deciding factor.

Thoughts?

post Feb 22, 2013 - 10:37 PM
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Special_Edy



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The 5S-FE is an updated version of the 3S-FE, not the 3S-GE
S is the engine family, as noted on your model# ST-204 (the models with the A series engine are AT-200's)
5 or 3 are the revision of the block, so the 5s block is a newer revision as you correctly guessed
F or G stand for fuel-economy(F) or performance(G) based.
The E on the end stands for Electronic Fuel Injection.

The 3S-FE is comparable to the 5S-FE. The 3S-GE(and its turboed(T) variant the 3S-GTE) have a totally different cylinder head design. I believe the 3SGE/3SGTE block is actually reinforced and fitted with higher quality internal components(rods, pistons and such) than the 3SFE and 5SFE because its intended to generate more power. But of course the largest difference is in the cylinder head. All toyota FE engines have a 23 Degree valve angle while the GE engines have a 44 degree valve angle

QUOTE (Special_Edy @ Jan 25, 2013 - 1:08 PM) *
Here is a 5S-FE head, note the shape of the combustion chanber and the angle of the valves, they are almost vertical.



Here is a 3sgte cylinder head, notice how the valves are almost sideways. Rather than go around two 90° bends, the air can almost flow straight through.


side by side-


The FE head on the right is narrower than the GE/GTE head on the left. The reason is notice how much farther apart the camshafts are spaced on the GTE. The camshafts are located almost directly over the valves on the 5SFE, hence the camshafts are close together. The camshafts are farther apart on the GE/GTE because the valves are pitched at a more sideways angle.
So the point is that with a 5sfe head, the airflow will have to make 4 sharp bends- 1) from horizontal flow through the intake port to nearly vertical downwards through the valve; 2) once it passes through the valve into the combustion chamber it must turn nearly 90° to flow towards the exhaust valve; 3) another sharp nearly 90° bend into the exhaust valve; finally another nearly 90° out the exhaust port.
The 3SGTE/3SGE has these same bends, but the angle are all significantly less. I would go so far as to conjecture that the airflow through the head has to make HALF the degrees of turns.

Yes there are many things you can do to improve the airflow of the 5sfe head, but the single most cost effective performance mod you can perform is to simply swap from a FE to a GE/GTE head.



Edit** ok so I finally found the specs buried in the forums, the 5SFE has a 22.3° valve angle, whereas the 3SGTE and 3SGE have 44.5° valve angles.


This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Feb 22, 2013 - 10:40 PM
post Feb 22, 2013 - 10:49 PM
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richee3



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In addition to everything Edy said, the 3S-GE is also a high-compression engine and revs higher than the 5S. As he said, the biggest difference is in the head- the GE head simply outflows the FE head, helping the engine breath better, more air = more power. The 3S-GTE is lower compression but was built for boost and boost always = MOAR POWARRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!!!one11!!!!!elevenoneone111!!!exclamationpoint!!!! Also, the number in the engine name denotes the revision to the block, but there are also revisions in each engine- meaning a first generation 3S-GTE, second generation 3S-GTE, 3rd generation 3S-GTE, and 4th generation 3S-GTE. It's the 3rd revision of the S block, with different generations of each revision. It gets pretty in-depth, but not that hard to follow once you catch the trend.


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post Feb 22, 2013 - 10:52 PM
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homebuilder

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Thanks so much! Great information!

You mentioned swapping heads, how much of a difference will that make and how hard is it?

Where can you get the ge heads?

If at a junk yard, what cars could you find them on?

Is the fuel efficiency much worse with the ge compared to the fe?
A little more gas is not a problem but my last car/truck got 10 mpg, never want that again...


Thanks again!
post Feb 22, 2013 - 11:10 PM
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Special_Edy



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Swapping the heads is still pretty involved. You have find/make a headgasket that works with both engines and you still need the intake, turbo, ecu and wiring harness for the GE/GTE. The revision 2 3SGTE is available in the US but the badass rev 3 3sgte and the 3sge beams have to be imported.
post Feb 22, 2013 - 11:22 PM
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RabidTRD



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3S-GE is all top end power, lacks torque. Where the 5S-FE is low end and falls on its face around 60 - 65mph. Cruzing around the city with a 5s is nice. Sucks ass on the highway though. Good MPH for trips as long as you're not screaming at 80 the whole way.

Personally, it you're looking for a bit more oomph, do cams, SAFC, and a decent 2.25" exhaust. That keeps it reliable too, unlike what can happen with a swap.


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1994 Toyota Celica GT-S 5S-FE 190k Miles. Project car
1992 Toyota Celica GT 5S-FE 170k Miles. Daily driver/beater
1999 Toyota Camry LE 5S-FE 216K Miles. RIP You will be missed.


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post Feb 23, 2013 - 12:34 AM
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nics



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Ask folks that have done the 3sge swap. I've heard some owners experienced almost the same gas mileage or even better. Of course it still depends how you drive.


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post Feb 23, 2013 - 5:11 PM
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QUOTE (RabidTRD @ Feb 23, 2013 - 12:22 AM) *
3S-GE is all top end power, lacks torque. Where the 5S-FE is low end and falls on its face around 60 - 65mph. Cruzing around the city with a 5s is nice. Sucks ass on the highway though. Good MPH for trips as long as you're not screaming at 80 the whole way.


That's not an engine problem. What you describe is a transmission issue. The gears on the s54 transmission are way too short for highway cruising.


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