6G Celicas Forums

Going off of the topic... Can a cop make you pop...

So i guess i totally never thought about this, but would soing a 3sgte swap into a 94-95 celi be illegal?
I say 94-95 because of smog regulations and OBDII, but aside from worrying about emissions... Would it be illegal to have a celi with a 3sgte in there? Assuming that you didnt do anything really crazy with...

Same questions goes for 96-99 celi's?

Please just facts or good links to helpfull sites.

illegal? yes, in any instance b/c the 3sgte never came in the 6th gen celica in the states. So if the police found out you had an illegal engine under you're hood, you could get in trouble. As far as making you pop you're hood (for a regular trasffic stop I am guessing) not sure, but I doubt it. You don't normally hear of people being pulled over and the cop asking you to open thier hood. Unless they have cause to search you're car. Definately for the smog test though, you will want a back up 5s or 7a, or just register you're car in an area where there are no smog regulations.

edit: just realized this thread was right below your's http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=60480

This post has been edited by 96bluevert: Jul 22, 2008 - 11:49 AM

I am not really worried about getting randomly searched, i am just looking for information on why it would be illegal and such, like specifically... and the .gov site i was on is making my head hurt so i stopped lol

So wht specifically makes having a 3sgte under the hood of a celi illegal?

didn't this answer your question?

THANK GOD I LIVE IN FL. I see 1st gen rx7s with ls1 swaps!!!! and huge superchargers hanging out of the hood. man its good to be free!

Legit, it's based on your state. Some cars are never sold in certain states, because their emissions laws are too strict. I remember there was a commercial about a truck that wasn't sold in like 15 states, and the voice-actor said "But who cares because you don't live in those states - Yee-Ha"

Point is that the 3sgte was sold in MR2's. Do you live in a state that you can buy an MR2 from a respectable dealership?

Ya...

Ugh i wish they made all the laws simple to read and you didnt have to go through hundreds of PDF pages to find something, my eyes still hurt....

Well then... chances are that a 3sgte motor is legal in your state. Whats the difference of witch toyota car it's in? And the 3sgte was sold in Celica's. That Celica just wasn't offered to you. It's called a Replacement Engine. If the Engine is legal, and it replaced your previous engine; what's the problem?

Will you get a ticket for using a 223 light bulb instead of a 225 in your dome light?

Now if you soup-it-up and delete the whole exaust and replace it with a HUGE pipe and a coffee can, and delete the emmisions componets, and add a flame thrower, then stick several bottles of nitrous oxide on it and burn ass around town all day, then yes, it's illegal.

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 22, 2008 - 4:50 PM

My boss sent me this last week, 'cause he knows I love my car more than most chicks tend to:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/TS/docs/VehEq/O...andoutcolor.pdf

So You Want To Customize Your Vehicle?
Many vehicle accessories are street legal but some may NOT be, so take a minute and read this over.
It may not only save you an encounter with a law enforcement officer, but could also save you some cash!
Accessory
Vehicle Code(s)
Rule / Interpretation
Rationale
Is a front license plate required?
ORS 803.525 Number of plates. 803.540 Failure to display plates. Class D traffic violation.
• Always require a front and back plate on a passenger vehicle. (Mopeds, motorcycles, trailers, campers, antique and specialty vehicles require only one plate.)
• Must be firmly secured, visible & legible.
• License plates are reflectorized and if a vehicle is stranded or disabled on a highway the plate will reflect the lights of an oncoming vehicle. This gives the driver of the oncoming vehicle an opportunity to recognize the hazard.
• Helps police identify oncoming vehicles.
Are license plate lights required? What about neon license plate lights?
ORS 816.090 Registration plate lights. ORS 816. Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation.
• A white license plate light is required .
• Must illuminate the license plate so that it can be read from 50 feet behind.
• Must be wired to come on when the headlights or parking lights are on.
• No additional lamp or equipment that impairs the effectiveness of the required lamps are permitted.
• White light enhances the visibility of the license plate during low light conditions and light is to be projected toward the plate.
• Neon license plate lamps may impair the ability to read the plate from 50 feet behind.
Are license plate covers permitted?
ORS 803.550 Illegal alteration or display of plates. Class B traffic violation.
• Any material or covering, other than a frame or plate holder, placed on, over or in front of the plate that alters the appearance of the plate.
• Tinted and non-tinted plate covers can alter the appearance of or the reflectivity of the plate and make it unreadable or reduce the reflectivity for safety purposes.
What are legal bumper heights?
Oregon has no bumper height laws, but all lights must fall within the standards set by FMVSS 108.
• Headlights: between 22 and 54 inches from the road surface.
• Tail & brake lights: between 15 and 72 inches from the road surface.
• Heights other than these limits for lights can create safety issues with glare from lights and potential dangerous over-ride issues during crashes.
How low can a car be lowered?
ORS 815.245 Violation of minimum clearance requirements for passenger vehicles. Class B traffic violation
• A vehicle may not have less clearance from the surface of a level roadway than the clearance between the roadway and the lowest portion of any rim of any wheel in contact with the roadway.
• Lowered vehicles may get hung up on uneven road surfaces or may not be able to enter or leave driveways or traverse railway crossings. This may cause crashes or tie up traffic waiting to remove the lowered vehicle from an obstruction.
Are turn signal, tail-light and headlight covers permitted?
ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation.
• Oregon adopted FMVSS 108 which disallows the use of light covers on required lighting equipment when lights are required to be in use. Light covers on turn signals, taillights and brake lights are not permitted as these lights are always in use. Headlight covers may not be used when headlights are required to be in use.
• Covers reduce the size and impair the effectiveness of the lamps and reflectors required by the regulations.
• Covers reduce the amount of light transmitted in some cases by over 30%. Reduction of light decreases the amount of time a driver has to react to an object.
• Covers reduce visibility to other road users.
Are clear tail lamp lenses permitted?
ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation.
• Signal lamps must emit either amber or red light. Brake lamps must emit red. Tail lamps and the required reflex reflectors (usually a part of the red lamp lens) must emit red. Side marker lamps and side reflex reflectors must emit red. Clear tail lamp covers only permitted where all of the above requirements are met.
• Usually the clear tail lamp lens does not include side marker lamps or any red reflex reflectors as required.
• Identifies the rear of the vehicle.
• Ensures optimum visibility to other road users.
• LED bulbs can emit the required color and comply.
Are blue or purple dot inserts in taillights legal?
ORS 816.080 Taillights.
ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation.
• On a motor vehicle that was manufactured before 1959, the taillight or taillight assembly, if the taillight is combined with another light, may contain a blue or purple insert of not more than one inch in diameter.
• Taillights with blue or purple inserts emit an unusual purplish light that is not usually attributed to tail and brake lights and can create a safety issue.
Are colored (blue, green etc.) headlight bulbs permitted?
ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation. ORS 816.050 Headlights.
• All headlamps must be WHITE in color as defined by Society of Automotive Engineers and FMVSS 108. White lamps have been tested to meet all headlamp requirements.
• Maximum wattage allowed in a headlamp is 70 watts.
• FMVSS 108 disallows any color coating on headlights and/or headlight bulbs.
• Blue and green lamps are designated for use on emergency vehicles only.
• Red lamps to front are reserved for emergency vehicles and school bus warning lamps.
• Colored bulbs give a distorted headlamp pattern, which may prevent the driver from seeing a person or object at the road edge or starting to cross the road.
Are under-car glow lamp kits (neon lights) permitted? How about windshield washer and valve stem lights?
ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation.
• All lighting equipment for road use in Oregon must meet FMVSS 108 standards. Neon lights of any type, windshield washer lights and valve stem lights have not met these standards and are not legal for use on Oregon’s roadways. Flashing red and blue lights may only be used by emergency vehicles.
• Lamps that emit a red, blue or green light are for use on emergency vehicles only.
• Check lighting equipment for disclaimers. If they are marketed for “Off-road Use Only”, “For Show Use Only” or something like: “Check local laws and ordinances for use.” This is an indicator that the product is not legal for roadway use.
When are fog lamps permitted?
ORS 811.515 When lights must be displayed; kind of light; number; direction; use on certain vehicles. ORS 811.520 Unlawful use or failure to use lights. Class B traffic violation.
• Fog lamps may only be used when high beams lights are allowed.
• Must be properly aimed (see Oregon Administrative Rule 735-108-0073).
• Must be amber lights and must be approved for street use.
• Restricted use and aiming avoids reduction of visibility for oncoming drivers.
CONTINUED ON OTHER SIDE􀃆
Accessory Vehicle Code(s) Rule / Interpretation Rationale
Does a windshield with cracks and damage need to be replaced?
ORS 815.020 Operation of an unsafe vehicle. Class B traffic violation. ORS 815.220 Obstruction of vehicle windows. Class D traffic violation.
• Anything that prohibits or impairs the ability to see into or out of the vehicle is a violation of ORS 815.220.
• If a cracked or broken windshield is in the drivers line of vision it should be repaired/replaced.
• Vehicles sold by a dealer or private party must have all safety equipment including windows in proper working safe condition.
• These standards ensure the driver’s visibility is not obstructed and the windshield is structurally sound. Windshields are an integral part of the unibody design that directs forces (energy) away from the driver in a crash.
• A cracked or broken windshield impairs the ability to see other objects.
• A damaged windshield reduces load carrying capacity of the windshield.
Is after-market window tinting or decals permitted on a window?
ORS 815.221 Tinting: authorized and prohibited materials; certificate. ORS 815.222 Illegal window tinting. Class B traffic violation.
• Windshields may have tint only in the top 6 inches of the windshield.
• All windows except the windshield must have a minimum of 35% light transmittance and a reflectivity of 13% or less.
• SUVs, pickups, vans, limousines and other multipurpose vehicles may have darker tinted (privacy glass) for windows behind the driver.
• A certificate must be provided by the person tinting vehicle windows stating the tint and reflectivity in each window, the tinter’s name and date the tint was applied. This certificate must be kept in the vehicle at all times.
• Physicians or optometrists may sign affidavits for darker tint for persons with physical conditions requiring darker tinting. This affidavit and the certificate mentioned above must be kept in the car at all times. This darker tint must be removed prior to resale of the vehicle.
• After market material may lower the level of light transmission through windows which could affect a driver's ability to see unlit objects and pedestrians in low light conditions and increase the probability of a collision.
• The application of a film on the glass changes the characteristics of automotive glass, including how the glass shatters.
• Dark film on the windows of a vehicle may jeopardize a police officer’s safety.
• Decals may obstruct the driver’s view.
Is one windshield wiper permitted?
ORS 815.215 Failure to have windshield wipers. Class C traffic violation.
• Vehicle must be equipped with the same number of wipers that came with the vehicle as original equipment from the manufacturer. (Motorcycles, vehicles of special interest, street rods, and antique vehicles may have exemptions from the windshield wiper(s) requirement.)
• Required to provide clear view to the driver when operating in poor weather conditions.
Are less restrictive flow (loud) mufflers / exhaust systems or noise enhancing attachments permitted?
ORS 815.250 Operation without proper exhaust system. Class C traffic violation.
• Vehicle must be equipped with a muffler that meets the following noise levels:
• Motor vehicles: before 1976, 94 dBA
• Motor vehicles 1976 & after, 91 dBA
• Motorcycles before 1976, 94 dBA
• Motorcycles 1976, 91 dBA
• Motorcycles after 1976, 89 dBA
• Emission of any loud or unnecessary noise from a motor vehicle is prohibited.
• Less restrictive exhaust systems may not meet exhaust emission standards.
• Permitted dB levels vary according to vehicle type and year of manufacture.
• Removal of catalytic converters is not permitted by state and federal emission laws.
Are after-market exhaust headers permitted?
ORS 815.250 Operation without proper exhaust system. Class C traffic violation.
• Headers are permitted providing the rest of the exhaust system, including legal mufflers and catalytic converter (if required), is in compliance.
• Less restrictive exhaust systems may not meet exhaust emission standards.
• Permitted dB levels vary according to vehicle type and year of manufacture.
Are wide tires permitted?
ORS 815.180 Mudguards and Fenders Standards. ORS 815.185 Operation without proper fenders or mudguards. Class C traffic violation.
• A fender, mudflap or body overhang that reduces the rearward projection of gravel, mud, water and snow from each tire is required. This must extend the full width of the tire tread.
• For non-commercial vehicles, the fender, mudguard/mudflap or body overhang must cover the complete width of the tire tread and come within 27 inches of the road surface behind all tires.
• Protects motorist visibility that could otherwise be reduced from spray from another vehicle.
• Protects motorists from inadvertently discharging road debris (rocks, dirt, sand, etc.) into the path of other motorists.
Can a smaller steering wheel be installed?
ORS 167.822 Improper repair of vehicle inflatable restraint system. Class A misdemeanor.
• If the vehicle was manufactured with an air bag restraint system, that system must be retained in the vehicle and must be in good operating condition when the vehicle is sold.
• Oregon adopted the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards for occupant restraint systems, including air bags. They must be maintained in good working condition. This is a safety issue for the driver and passengers.
Can I install an interior lamp kit? (neon bulbs etc.)
ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation.
• Interior lamps are not specifically addressed but distractions to other road users are not permitted. If a lamp kit is installed the emitted light should not reduce the driver’s vision and not emit light that can be seen by other road users while the vehicle is moving, especially if the light is one that is only allowed for use by emergency vehicles (red, blue, green).
• Lights that reduce the driver’s vision, or are a distraction to other motorists may contribute to a crash.
• These types of interior lamp kits may be misconstrued as emergency vehicle lights by other roadway users.
Can a motorcycle have a flashing brake light?
ORS 816.100 Brake lights. ORS 816.360 Use of prohibited lighting equipment. Class C traffic violation
• Brake lights on all vehicles must emit a steady burning red light. (See Update at right for new information.)
• Motorcycle brake lights may flash intermittently, provided that the brake lights do not override the rear turn signal function.
There are some special allowances and or exemptions for vehicles that are registered and plated as antique vehicles, hot rods, vehicles of special interest, and for road machinery, and implements of husbandry (farm tractors and machinery).
For additional information please contact: Vehicle Equipment Standards Program, Transportation Safety Division, Oregon Department of Transportation, 235 Union Street NE, Salem, OR 98301-1054, or call (503) 986-4198, or visit the Vehicle Equipment Standards web page at: http://www.odot.state.or.us/transafety/Veh_Equipment.htm

D-man - that's in Texas - some states require that the exact year of the engine had to be offered on that exact year/model vehicle. So In other words you could take a '93 3S-GTE and install it in a '93 Celica GTS [FWD] and that's legal but do it to our '94s and it's illegal.

so would it be alright to find a 94 3sgte or should i just give up that dream now?

im at 185k on the original gt engine... sooner or later im gonna need a new one. damn this blows. i need to figure out something to do. the car WILL still last me a good while at least. i just want something factory turboed and 4 cyl. something i can take up to 300hp maybe

I believe that TECHNICALLY there is a federal law that states that you cannot install an engine into your car that is OLDER than the year of the car. In other words, you could install a 3rd gen or 4th gen 3SGTE into a 6th gen Celica and be okay, but TECHNICALLY you cannot install a 2ng gen 3SGTE into a 6th gen Celica. I say technically because I've never heard of any instance of this law actually being enforced and I'm not even sure if any agency is assigned to do so. That said, the only enforcement that you need to worry about will come on the State level, which varies from state to state.

Generally speaking, California is the most strict with some counties following the same procedures now, and the way the the laws are enforced are by the required vehicle inspection. The engine must pass the following tests:
Sniffer test at the tailpipe (engine runs clean). Almost any JDM engine in good running condition will pass this test.
Visual inspection for EGR. This is where most JDM engines fail since many do not have EGR. It seems logical that one could design a functional EGR system fairly easily that would allow you to pass.
OBD2 test. This is the really tricky one. On all vehicles 1996 and up a scan tool will be plugged into the OBD2 port to check for trouble codes and whatnot. ALL JDM ECUs, OBD1 or OBD2, will fail this test. The OBD2 JDM ECUs do not speak the same language as US-spec scan tools, so they will get a communication error and fail the test. This is the most troublesome of the tests performed since there is not any good solution to it at this time.

Some states do only a sniffer test which is usually passed easily.

Some states do a sniffer test AND an OBD2 test which of course causes problems on vehicles '96 and up as outlined above.

Some states, especially in the south and west, have no inspection at all.

How to beat the OBD2 inspection.

There are a couple of ways to get around an OBD2 inspection engine swap:
- Do your engine swap on a vehicle '95 or older (getting harder all the time since '95 cars are now 13 years old!)
- Some states actually have an exemption that you can achieve by attempting to "repair" the problem a number of times and showing receipts that you spent a certain amount of money to do so.
- In other states, it's possible to find a shop that will "help you out", whatever that means.
- Some people obtain a legal address in another county or state that does not have OBD2 inspection and they register the vehicle there.
- Keep your USDM engine, ECU, and harness in storage, and every time you need to do the inspection, swap in your old engine, ECU, and harness. Then swap back. (Some people actually do this).
- Run the JDM engine using an OBD2 USDM ECU. This is only possibly on a handful of swaps, one good example being the 2JZGTE VVTi swap into an IS300 or GS300. The IS300/GS300 ECU and harness is very similar to that of the 2JZGTE VVTi, so you can use the stock USDM harness and ECU to run the engine, with a piggyback or standalone and some good tuning. A number of people have passed emissions this way.
- Do your engine swap using a USDM engine that is OBD2 (not many great options)

How to beat the EGR Visual Inspection.

- Use an engine that has EGR
- Install an aftermarket or custom EGR system
- Find a shop that will help you out

Hope that helps!

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jul 23, 2008 - 9:39 AM

^^^
And that is why you are the man:)

thanks

what about a turbo set up in the 5sfe? is this legal or not?

I was actually thinking about doing this a few months ago, since my car is obd2. I was going to get another set of ecu plugs, and Tee them off the main harness. That way, i could plug either ecu in, if I ever needed .

we already know you can use the 3s map sensor on the 5s ecu.
You can use the intake air temp inside the afm since it has a similar scale.
Coil is the same.
Igniter will work but wont let you rev above 4k.
Distributor SHOULD be the same.

Only issue I could think of is that the injectors are high impedence for the 5sfe.

Then it would just be a matter of tuning for the 440s with an safc, and making sure the ecu sees what it wants to see from both o2 sensors that are needed to spit out the a-ok for the odb2 emissions system.

Another way of doing this would be to keep both ecu's in the car, and have the 5sfe one running off a simulator. I know megasquirt has a simulator for testing their ems that just sends out dummy rpm, coolant temp, etc... voltages to full the ecu into thinking its running in a car.

wow thats a lot of great info, thanks doc. my car is 94 so looks like i cleared one hurdle.

whats EGR?

Awe poor you guys...
You wish you lived in Canada
In Montreal, as long as the engine is older than your frame, it's legal

Lets say:

3rd gen 3SGTE (94+) in a 1992 wouldnt be legal
but
3rd gen 3SGTE (94+) in a 1995 is legal

As long as the car came no matter where with this engine, it's ok



Exhaust gas recirculation

In a typical automotive spark-ignited (SI) engine, 5 to 15 percent of the exhaust gas is routed back to the intake as EGR (thus comprising 5 to 15 percent of the mixture entering the cylinders). The maximum quantity is limited by the requirement of the mixture to sustain a contiguous flame front during the combustion event; excessive EGR in an SI engine can cause misfires and partial burns. Although EGR does measurably slow combustion, this can largely be compensated for by advancing spark timing. The impact of EGR on engine efficiency largely depends on the specific engine design, and sometimes leads to a compromise between efficiency and NOx emissions. A properly operating EGR can theoretically increase the efficiency of gasoline engines via several mechanisms:

Reduced throttling losses. The addition of inert exhaust gas into the intake system means that for a given power output, the throttle plate must be opened further, resulting in increased inlet manifold pressure and reduced throttling losses.
Reduced heat rejection. Lowered peak combustion temperatures not only reduces NOx formation, it also reduces the loss of thermal energy to combustion chamber surfaces, leaving more available for conversion to mechanical work during the expansion stroke.
Reduced chemical dissociation. The lower peak temperatures result in more of the released energy remaining as sensible energy near TDC, rather than being bound up (early in the expansion stroke) in the dissociation of combustion products. This effect is relatively minor compared to the first two.
It also decreases the efficiency of gasoline engines via at least one more mechanism:

Reduced specific heat ratio. A lean intake charge has a higher specific heat ratio than an EGR mixture. A reduction of specific heat ratio reduces the amount of energy that can be extracted by the piston.
EGR is typically not employed at high loads because it would reduce peak power output. This is because it reduces the intake charge density. EGR is also omitted at idle (low-speed, zero load) because it would cause unstable combustion, resulting in rough idle.

Recirculation is usually achieved by piping a route from the exhaust manifold to the inlet manifold, which is called external EGR. A control valve (EGR Valve) within the circuit regulates and times the gas flow. Some engine designs perform EGR by trapping exhaust gas within the cylinder by not fully expelling it during the exhaust stroke, which is called internal EGR. A form of internal EGR is used in the rotary Atkinson cycle engine.

EGR can also be used by using a variable geometry turbocharger (VGT) which uses variable inlet guide vanes to build sufficient backpressure in the exhaust manifold. For EGR to flow, a pressure difference is required across the intake and exhaust manifold and this is created by the VGT.

Other methods that have been experimented with are using a throttle in a turbocharged diesel engine to decrease the intake pressure to initiate EGR flow.

Early (1970s) EGR systems were relatively unsophisticated, utilizing manifold vacuum as the only input to an on/off EGR valve; reduced performance and/or drivability were common side effects. Slightly later (mid 1970s to carbureted 1980s) systems included a coolant temperature sensor which didn't enable the EGR system until the engine had achieved normal operating temperature (presumably off the choke and therefore less likely to block the EGR passages with carbon buildups, and a lot less likely to stall due to a cold engine). Many added systems like "EGR timers" to disable EGR for a few seconds after a full-throttle acceleration. Vacuum reservoirs and "vacuum amplifiers" were sometimes used, adding to the maze of vacuum hoses under the hood. All vacuum-operated systems, especially the EGR due to vacuum lines necessarily in close proximity to the hot exhaust manifold, were highly prone to vacuum leaks caused by cracked hoses; a condition that plagued early 1970s EGR-equipped cars with bizarre reliability problems (stalling when warm, stalling when cold, stalling or misfiring under partial throttle, etc.). Hoses in these vehicles should be checked by passing an unlit blowtorch over them: when the engine speeds up, the vacuum leak has been found. Modern systems utilizing electronic engine control computers, multiple control inputs, and servo-driven EGR valves typically improve performance/efficiency with no impact on drivability.

In the past, a fair number of car owners disconnected their EGR systems in an attempt for better performance and some still do. The belief is either EGR reduces power output, causes a build-up in the intake manifold, or believe that the environmental impact of EGR outweighs the NOx emission reductions. Disconnecting an EGR system is usually as simple as unplugging an electrically operated valve or inserting a ball bearing into the vacuum line in a vacuum-operated EGR valve. In most modern engines, disabling the EGR system will cause the computer to display a check engine light. In almost all cases, a disabled EGR system will cause the car to fail an emissions test, and may cause the EGR passages in the cylinder head and intake manifold to become blocked with carbon deposits, necessitating extensive engine disassembly for cleaning.



This post has been edited by reko: Aug 7, 2008 - 12:12 PM

You'd want to use the 5S distributor (they are different) and igniter, and then tune the 5S using a good piggyback... yeah, could be done.

-Doc

> lagos
> '98 GT Hatchback
> From Philadelphia, PA
@ - Run the JDM engine using an OBD2 USDM ECU. This is only possibly on a handful of swaps,

This possible on a 3rd gen 3SGTE ?

> I was actually thinking about doing this a few months ago, since my car is obd2.

Ever try it ?

@@ Aug 7, 2008 - 12:14 PM
@@ Dr_Tweak
@@ You'd want to use the 5S distributor (they are different) and igniter,
@@ and then tune the 5S using a good piggyback... yeah, could be done.
@@ -Doc

What would a conversion like that cost ?
Would you Have to reprogram the US OBDII ECU at all VIN or anything ?

Regards;

Well I would have to do it here, first of all, so you'd have to bring me your car.