6G Celicas Forums

I have seen a dyno of a 4th gen 3s (caldina)making 400whp on stock internals.However with these things you never know how long these engines last for.My question from either personal experiemce or other persons experience .Whats the most power made on a stock bottom half 4 gen to be driven around daily without breaking
I have a 4th gen and changed the pistons cause orginals cracked but didnt have the extra cash to buy forged rods.So i got some JE pistons but the 4th gen rods look so much smaller than the older mr2 and celica rods that with my new build i am deciding to build it to around 350whp and leave it there cause the rods got me nervous

Like you said, you saw one make 400hp on the dyno, on the other hand you have one with a blown piston that was probably making less then 400hp. It all reallly depends on your tuning. Invest the money there, and your setup should last a while.

the rods are the same part number as any other 3SGTE gen. All gens use all the same crankshaft, rods and pistons. The difference between pistons are the compression ratio :

gen 1 = 8.5 :1
gen 2 = 8.8 :1
gen 3 = 8.5 :1
gen 4 = 9.0 :1

Do not be nervous about the rods, if the stock ones can make great HP on any gen 2-3 engine, the gen 4 will follow.

I hear u and agree with you on the tuning which im gonna do with thenew setup but still wanted to have an idea of where to draw the brakes but then again its too late my turbo is probably only good for around 370whp so lets

@pit
I hear u but when looking at the rods side by side the 4th gen do look a little less beefier but hey its a toyota engine and a 3s so i wont worry 2much ill jus try to tune safely and not get too wild
Any other info out there on the limits of the 4th gen

Ok, I rechecked my Toyota EPC and the gen4 rods have the same part number as the gen3 ones. So, if the stock gen3 rods handle your power goal, the gen4 will do too.

As I said, the crankshaft is the same for all gen2 gen3 and gen4. The gen1 uses a different flywheel bolt pattern.

For the pistons, the EPC part numbers are different because of the compression difference, but you can use any 3sgte aftermaket pistons in your gen4 block.

will 4 gen 3sgte fit in our cars im doing a swap plans r for the 3ed gen but now im hearing bout a 4th gen i noticed 4gen has higher comp. bad for turbo right as the 3rd gen turbo can be upgraded? whats the better gen....so far im thinking 3rd gen

Yes it will fit as any other 3sgte. Depend on what "better" means for you.

Gen 4 :

Pros :
-COP ignition
-upgraded head/valves/intake cam
-sidefeed intake manifold
-higher compression (9.0:1)
-upgraded turbo (slightly larger than CT20b)(need to be confirmed)
-OBDII
-newer : 1997-2002
-540cc top feed high impedance injectors.

Cons :
-no wiring diagram available, wiring is harder to be done
-require a tach adaptor to make your stock tach working
-mostly automatic (seldom 5spd but they are hard to find)
-turbo manifold is cast with turbine housing. So, if you want to upgrade turbo, you need a new manifold.
-air-to-air top mount intercooler
-price is a little higher $$$

Gen 3:

Pros :
-easier to find
-water to air intercooler
-wiring is easier
-5sp tranny only (most of the time LSD (if a MR2 gen3))
-known to be good 'CT20b'. Some guys around here are doing 330whp easily with only exhaust, intake, boost control and water injection.

Cons :
-older engine (94-99)
-distributor ignition
-centerfeed manifold
-8.5:1 comp

Both swap are good. I suggest you gen 4th (I'm sold lol). But the water-to-air on the gen3 is really tempting. And if you find a WRC version, you will have water injection and antilag system included (need to be activated..).

the forth gen has high comprission thats bad for turbo from my understanding cant be boosted too much unless lower compression can the 3rd gen be obd II as well?.......my plans r to put bigger turbo and front mount intercoolor and use the e153 lds tranny from mr2 and upgrade cams and gears and fuel rod.....what is the diff between the 3sgte gens (1, 2, 3)besides age and intercoolor and turbo size

9.0:1 compression is really good. No problem with it. Why do you think all aftermarket pistons makers (JE, CP, Mahle) are offering 9.0:1 comp forged pistons as a standard... With that compression, you will simply get better throttle response when you are off-boost. Don't be affraid of this comp ratio.

According to the mods you want to do, I suggest you to buy a MR2 gen 3 engine swap. Not a ST205 one because you do not want the WTA intercooler and because you want the LSD transmission (it will comes with the swap normally).

Between gen1 and gen 2, not much difference besides turbo and intercooler.

Between gen 2 and gen 3, search a little about it, you will find everything you want but here are the main :

-Map based ECU on gen3 (speed-density) vs MAF
-540cc vs 440 cc injectors
-turbo (CT20b vs CT26)
-WTA intercooler vs air-to-air intercooler
-TVIS on gen2, no TVIS on gen 3
-etc.

Search about it, you will find everything you want!

Sam

sry what is -TVIS on gen2, no TVIS on gen 3 ill look it up tho if u cant explain np but the reason i sak bout the diff. in gens is cuz 3rd gen clip is hard to find and pricy when found and 2nd gen is easy and cheap ......with what i already plan to change on it anyways im wonderin whats a better investment

-Map based ECU on gen3 (speed-density) vs MAF
-540cc vs 440 cc injectors
-turbo (CT20b vs CT26)
-WTA intercooler vs air-to-air intercooler
-TVIS on gen2, no TVIS on gen 3

if i get a stand alone ecu will that work better for gen2
can 540cc r better be put on the gen 2
my plans is to get bigger turbo kit anyway
wich comes wit own inercoolor
tvis? idk ill look it up.....

so far i like what i here.....so its best to get mr2T clip not st205 for my project

ok got it.......Toyota Variable Induction System, or T-VIS, is a variable intake system designed by Toyota.

It improves the low-end torque of high-performance, small displacement four-stroke engines by changing the geometry of the intake manifold according to the engine rotation speed. The system uses two separate intake runners per cylinder, one being equipped with a butterfly valve that can either open or close the runner. All valves are attached to a common shaft which is rotated by a vacuum actuator outside the manifold.

The engine control unit allows vacuum into the actuator by powering a solenoid valve when the engine rotation speed is below 4200 RPM. Above this engine speed vacuum is cut off and a spring inside the actuator causes the butterfly valve to fully open. The theory behind the system is that in the lower engine speed band, the speed of the intake air will be increased because the intake runner cross section per cylinder is smaller. However, when engine speed increases, the second runner is opened, decreasing airflow speed, but increasing the airflow volume, better matching the engine's airflow needs at higher RPM. With modified engines (more flow) you may want to have your T-VIS open earlier than stock because it begins to restrict the airflow at a lower RPM, since the airflow per RPM is greater with upgraded turbochargers, intake, and exhaust systems. There is now a T-VIS controller on the market: T-VIS controller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tvis

so whar r the pro and cons and how can i eliminate the cons of the tvis

This post has been edited by Dragondog: Mar 13, 2009 - 6:36 PM

Do NOT rush into anything....take your time. I have personally OWNED both setups...GEN2 and GEN3, and I would personally NEVER go the GEN2 route again. If you are looking for 450+whp, then GEN2 will do fine as EVERYTHING will need to be changed anyway, and you can swap everything in for a LITTLE cheaper.

The best advice I can give you, is go for a ride in a car making 300+whp.....and if you can find a celica, or an Mr2, it will give you a more realistic idea of power to feeling, so you can gauge a bit better on how much power you would ACTUALLY like to have. Pulling a number out of the sky comping from around 100whp in your Celica that is above 250whp is nothing more than that...a number. People dont realize how a car sub 3000lbs will feel/perform above 300whp.

Here are a few things I HATED about the GEN2:
MAF sensor
CT26
440cc injectors
and the BIGGEST killer......You can only get to around 275whp before you are fuel limited. THATS IT, your done....go home. And as you research this more, you will see there really isnt any way to go above 275whp WITHOUT Fuel upgrades/turbo upgrade (BTW the CT26 is only good for about 230-250whp)/and a tune. This wouldn't be so bad if it didnt run you 3000-5000$ ON TOP of what the swap cost you!

Now, the things that I LOVE about the GEN3:
540cc injectors
MAP based
Metal Head gasket
Top Mount W2A intercooler
and the DAILY DRIVE ABILITY

This is a TOTALLY different animal. Lets just do a quick performance comparison between GEN3 and GEN2.....GEN3 comes with a better exhaust cam, better turbo, bigger injectors, NO AFM, Better flowing intake manifold, etc. A GEN2 with a turbo upgraded to CT20B VS a GEN3 with the STOCK CT20B.......The GEN3 will make between 20-30 MORE WHP than the GEN2 at the same boost level and same modifications ie Intake, exhaust, etc.

So for the fuel limits of the GEN3.......Its around 350whp. In its stock forum I made 330whp and 310ftlbs at 21psi.....and 340whp and 340ftlbs at 25psi. I DO NOT recommend running 25psi on the stock CT20B, but I bring this up because I was still at a VERY safe AFR at these power levels. So, like I said before.....Go for a ride in a car sub 3000lbs making 300+whp and THEN decided from there what power level you may be after. If you are wanting sub 400whp, then I HIGHLY recommend the GEN3.

If you are looking for 400+whp.....well a GEN2 will do just fine. Because even a GEN3 above 400WHP will require the same Modifications as the GEN2 to achieve these power levels....ie Standalone/turbo/fuel/tune/cams.

As for the GEN4....I didnt go this route for a few reasons. I didnt want the hassle of the wiring harness, the lack of solid information, I dont like the top mount A2A Intercooler, and the annoyance of finding parts. But. if you have somebody to do you harness, which I would think Tweak would do it, are going with a FMIC, and dont mind having your car down for an extended period of time when trying to locate/recieve the parts when then break, then the GEN4 is as nice of an option as the GEN3.

Keep researching.....you are on the right track, GL.

thx.....yes i plan to get a hold of tweak for the harness....thats if i cant and dont want to do it myself.....iv done so much in rewire the car already ........i do have another car for the get a round....so the celica is now the project........i have ridden in 300+ car and i like it i am wanting 400whp but i dont mind building up to that.......a stand alone i plan to get either way, upgraded turbo kits either way, cam gears eithe way, turbo timing, compleate gasket kit including head gasket, lsd tranny to help with traction, upgrade injectors, upgrade fuel pump, stage 4 clutch, lightweight flywheel, xhaust system, suspention i already did but im gonna re do it, break system brembo,....i read that there is a t-vis controler does this controler eliminate the cons of having t-vis as it can be adjusted......i would also like to get higher rpms......i just dont want to get a motor that costs alot when i could go cheaper and get the same out of it if im already gona rip off stock and put aftermarket on it

This post has been edited by Dragondog: Mar 14, 2009 - 12:41 AM

If anyone needs a break on caldina wiring or needs help getting their engine started by conecting various points on engine harnass and ecu to basically cheat and turn engine on without wiring it into car,we can help.all these ideas or comments that this engine is difficult to wire are not true,the problem is the data is in russian or japanese but once you compile info and share notes with others as we did its relativily easy!dont get suckered or misled by wiring guys or swap garages is my best advice.for 400-500 dlrs you save you can buy me a car gift and yourself some nice **** instead of wasting it giving money away so car shop guy can fix up his car and fatten up their bank accounts.my info is free,just email me with where your project's status as far as if the engine has harnass,has ecu or not etc and ill do my best to help you out with a plan on how yours should be connected in order to start.i have plans for guys who need to make harnasses too ,but i had a complete uncut harnass and ecu from car with engine to start off with,which is of course easier,the guy who shared notes with me had to make a harness so there are plans to create and connect a harness.
a real auto tech helps the homies. westside
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytvnJnIxRDk
Bajaintermovers@gmail.com

why not post info here? Are u a spam bot..

Its great to share info! Especially wiring information!

Having said that, I think you are wrong in saying that someone is ripping you off when they provide a wiring service. Having done wiring harness work myself, I can tell you that (as Im sure you know) it can be a very time consuming process, and for some people a very frustrating one. Just removing all of the electrical tape from the harness can take a few hours of someones time to complete.

You also have to remember that wiring up a 2nd gen, 3rd gen and 4th gen 3sgte is not all the same thing. There is more/less wiring involved with each of them, with the 2nd gen harness being the most difficult and time consuming to complete and the 3rd gen being the easiest.

Also, not everyone is good at wiring. You can provide all the info in the world, but you have to remember that some of the people on this site have never done any type of electrical work before. Not everyone knows how to properly solder a connection or the reason for using different gauge wiring when extending parts of the harness. That lack of experience can lead to car fires and all kinds of headaches.

So my point is, share your info and help everyone out, but keep in mind that for some people sending out their harness and having it come back in a plug and play fashion is the RIGHT thing to do! And if you think the price is too expensive, then I challenge you to offer the same wiring service to every swapper on this forum for 50$. I would like to see how long you could keep that up for. lol

This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 15, 2010 - 9:32 AM

The 4th gen 3sgte from the Caldina is NOT OBDII. OBDII is a US thing. You can read more about that here.
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67083

^^ link does not work

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67083