6G Celicas Forums

Ok, maybe you will clear this up a bit more once you read my post I made while you respond....But the Stock System does not have a "return system" for the amount of time the injector is left opened or closed (as far as I know anyways). So with the Ability of the AEM FIC to control the amount of time the injector is left open of closed 100% after the ECU, I dont see why controlling 800cc injectors would be a problem. You could literally close the injector if you wanted, needed to.

What is the stock Injector size, and would You or Art happen to know what percentage of duty cycle it is at at idle? And yes, there is a point of which the injector can be too big, I agree. If anyone knows the answer to this question it is very simple math to know what the largest injector you could control with the AEM FIC would be.

And could you cover from your experiences with the emanage, this statement for me:
"Basic functions will allow the tuner to slightly alter factory injector duty-cycle (± 20% at 5 preset RPM points) by intercepting and altering airflow or MAP sensor signals."

thats for the emanage blue, jim, not the ultimate.
2 very diffrent things.
the blue will only control airflow, by altering the airflow signal, (the same way the SAFC does, just with more than a lo/hi map)
the ultimate controls the injectors directly, after the ecu, exactly the same way the FIC does (that was the reason i bought the ultimate over the regluar emanage.)
from the greddy manual:
Injection Adjustment Map



Fuel trimming in the previous system was achieved by adjusting the ''Airflow Adjustment Map'' which could also affectthe ignition timing. The improved ''Injection Adjustment Map'' is used to trim and add fuel directly by controlling the injector signal, therefor it will not affect the ignition timing at all.(However with an internal jumper setting change, the system is still able to trim the fuel by adjusting the airflow signal like the previous unit)


::edit:: it also does that on a 16X16 map.


i defiently think the ebay turbo could make 400whp, it'd just take more boost.

but that dont matter in this topic, from what jim posted it seems like he's going with a GT based turbo, which will do it with faster spool more than likely, which would be SWEEEEET.

Good to know about the difference of the Ultimate vs the Blue. So you have the abilty to close an injector with the Ultimate?

As for the turbo, No Brent made mention in an earlier thread that he is sticking with the T3 setup.

Also, Can you control the injectors +/- 100% at every rpm point of the 16x16, or is it still 5 points?

Fight fight fight!

NO FIGHTING, this is probably some of the best/most informative information we have had on here in MONTHS!

thats sad.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jun 29, 2009 - 5:09 PM

your right, but its true

keep in mind that ALL piggy backs are not designed to "control" the injector. they are designed to "correct" it. This has the benefit of letting you keep your stock fuel curve and make adjustments, but is also where you can run into problems when you install injectors that are too big.

there is a time for an safc, a time for a piggy back, and a time for a full stand alone. id say a 400hp 5sfe would qualify for the third option.

well, yea, untill the minimum opening time.

ahh i thought he was gonna go with the gt3076 like you had posted.



no, its 16X16, meaning 16rpm set points, and 16 load setpoints. total of 256. and it interpolates between them (just like the FIC or standalones do, standalones just have more setpoints)
the emange blue only had 5 setpoint for load, basicly.

Yes, a stand alone ECU would be the best bet, it always is. A standalone ECU will always outshine a piggyback. BUT, if the FIC could in fact control the injectors (which I still haven't been show why it cant), then that is another Viable option. If all he looking for is a way to get his AFR's in line with over sized injectors, and doesnt want all the bells and whistles of a full Standalone ECU....then I say why not

the basic reason is that the idle opening time is very small, and when you try to get an 800CC injector to open for less than half of of what the stock opening time signal is, your going to have issues.
with 800cc injectors, your adding 4X the fuel to whatever opening time the stock ecu has set.
you can only remove so much of that opening time, before you run into issues with the injectors just not being able to open and close fast enough, which causes them to heat up, and stick, ect.

:: ill ignore the shots taken at me personally by saying this:
this is probably some of the best/most informative information we have had on here in MONTHS!

im sorry, but i've put 4+ years of hard work into my project, and others.
i document everything i do here, on this forum, for everyone else to learn from my mistakes, and acomplishments.
are you saying what i've done here is not informative?
in the past few months, i've documented my engine upgrades, my engine rebuild, and subsuquent dyno information, all of which i do to help spur disscussion and provide information for the members of this site, and the guests who visit here from others.
im sorry, jim, but i take offense to what you imply with that statement.

Manny, no personal shot at you, LOLOLOL Simply forgot about your recent posting of your build. I am sorry you took it as an attack on you, it was purely an oversight.

Feel free to remove those comments from this thread, as they were not intended to be hurtful. I was just enjoying the solid information coming from this topic, and was glad to see some solid information about the topic.

you know, after sitting down and having dinner with the family, and thinking about this some more, ill say this, i definetly shouldnt have taken it as a shot at me personally, but it bothers me cause its more of a shot at ALL the people on this site who take the time to post and make this site the best 6th gen resource site on the planet.
guys like :
Ewie with his 7age project
or
Fastbirds Carbon Fiber Wrapping project
or
Tigawoods Autocross thread

or anyof the people on this site who actually take the time to post about they're adventures with they're 6gc.

people need to take a step back, and realize how much this site has helped every one of us, despite how we may feel when it comes to how and why we do what we do with our cars, and try and focus on how WE can make this site better by creating these interesting topics that we all love to converse about.
some of us (including myself at times) i think have become jaded as to just how much this site has enriched all of our lives, bringing us tons of knowledge, some great friends and aquatiences, linking us to other great sites, and not to mention some great times at meets ect.
instead of posting that this is the best topic youve seen in months, why not take the time to find somthing interesting to post about, start a topic that actually helps forward the community, as a whole, and keeps the forum fresh, especially for those of us who have been around longer, and are generally bored by the same old forum banter that you get on any forum that you are around long enough on.
people seem to forget that is US that creates the content on this site, and its up to US as to what the younger people that come here to learn do and do not learn based on what we do, but more importantly do NOT post.

Never meant for this to turn out like this. I merely was excited about finding out the differences between the Ulitimate and the FIC, and if they were viable options for the 5sfte setup above 400whp. There was truly solid information covered on this topic, and I enjoyed it.

Dont worry, Im done.....its a little ridiculous now.

Holy overreaction Manny. Calm down man, I don't think there was any negative connotation associated with Jim's post..... at all

most of that info was posted years ago in mannys 5sfte thread. thats why manny upgraded to the emanage ultimate from his safc. brets adventures are just building up on that old info.
The Fic and the ultimate are two VERY similar units.

I say we star a thread titled FIC vs Ultimate to compare the 2 and discuss it there....then we can give Brent his thread back.

Honestly I don't no about either but I again wanna say how glad I am that your getting to work on your car Brent best of luck.

we all love the orange tangerine the orange tangerine the orange tangerine!!!

haha thank you shannon.


i didnt mean to start arguements over whats better and all that stuff. nor should their even be any arguement. im going to be using emanage ultimate. so no need to debate whats better. i feel the ultimate is better so thats what i plan on using. it is my build. i am also using the 550-560cc injectors. there really is no need for 800cc. i just dont see why some simple information or opinions would trigger such BS. its almost like im back in grade school . i mean if u guys want to debate whats better with pro and cons and have a nice simple debate thats fine. but really? theres no need for any of what is above.

I believe that the start of all the arguments was the assumption that Brent needs to run an ungodly sized injector like an 800cc for 400hp. 400hp needs a 510cc injector, assuming that his BSFC is around, or close to .50. a 550-560 is PLENTY of injector for a 400hp build. Either way, neither of the formentioned fuel management systems would be adequate enough for a build that actually did require a 800cc injector. If Brent were to build an engine that would require him to run such a large injector, he would need to be putting down close to the 650-700hp range. Not trying to be ingorant here, just laying down some facts.