6G Celicas Forums

imo there was no "argument" but thats neither here nor there.

just FYI cam, the bsfc on the 5s is closer to .60 - .63 than .50.
your gonna wanna have some headroom on the injectors, so your not running them at 100% duty cycle.
for 400whp (which i havent seen mentioned,.. brents goal is 400 WHEEL hp, not 400 flywheel, right?) he's gonna need somewhere ~ 650-700cc injectors to have a little safety margin.

Manny, just out of curiousity, where did you find out that the 5S-FE was closer to .60-.63? I mean, its very good information to have, but normally engines with that high of a bsfc are a FACTORY forced inducted engine, which naturally run more efficiently.
Also, I don't know if you've heard or not, but I'm currently boosting my Civic. I will be putting down ~400whp with that, and I'm only running a 580cc injector in that car. I have basically the same setup Brent has on his car, but its on my Civic. The guys who are running the ~700cc-ish injectors have a hell of a time fouling out plugs because the injectors are way to large when the car is out of boost. I'm baseing all of this off of my own experience, and also, the mistakes others have made.

This post has been edited by boosted185: Jul 1, 2009 - 2:44 PM

its based off my own experience, and aaron and ken from ATS racing.

gooootcha!

cam, what formula are you using to get 400hp needs a 510cc injector @ a bfdc of ~.50?

take the HP goal of the engine, multiply that by your assumed bsfc.
divide by number of cylinders which will give you a lbs/hr injector, then covert that to cc

400 x .50 = 200

200 / 4 = 50 lbs/hr

50lbs/hr x 10.2 = 510

I took an EFI tuning class a few years back in Chicago at Genesis Racing & Development, and the formula is out of my text book I got during the class. Still havent made it back for the advanced class yet which is all dyno tuning...the price is rather high and I'm a poor college student

yea, i was just curious.
i use the same method, just subtract for duty cycle (i like to have some saftey margin so your not running the injector @ 100% duty cycle), but thought you meant 400whp not flyhweel.
510cc injectors will do 400 flyhweel, but i would normally want a bit of headroom.

Yea Manny, the formula I used IS for flywheel hp, not whp. I mean, you could always guesstimate a flywheel number and go from there if your dead set on using formulas. But once or twice around the engine building block, and you'll know what works for what. lol.

So besides just upgrading the injectors, whats the plan to get this car to make 400hp on pump gas?

more boost, better tune? nothing else to it. 400hp really isnt so high of a number i NEED to run race gas. 93 should suffice.



this is brent btw. i thought i was logged on under SeverX13 but apparently cam was still logged in.

This post has been edited by boosted185: Jul 1, 2009 - 10:46 PM

I like how quickly this went from "money is no object, im going to put the celica on the map" to "im just going to turn up the boost".
I think your going to find that the first thing to hold you back will be the cams and the second thing will be the octane. Without upgrading to a bigger turbo or lowering compression, 400hp might be difficult to reach on the 5sfe. Not to mention that the motor should have a forged bottom end to last longer than a few dyno runs, and the cars timing curve would also need to be tuned through a real stand alone (most piggy backs have issues with our noisy ignition system). It wouldnt be a bad idea to upgrade the intake manifold and throttle body at this point as well. not to mention that the trans is going to crap out at this point as well.

If 400hp was a boost controller away, i think shannons car would have been there by now.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 2, 2009 - 12:59 AM

So i definatly remember saying that i didnt want BS in my thread. If im going to turn up the boost obviously I'm going to be spending more money to have the engine handle the power. You really think I was gonna turn up the boost like 20+, try and tune it and call it a day? In short, it is more boost and a better tune. but there is more that goes into it then that. I said that to sum it up easily. 400hp really isnt THAT HIGH of a horsepower that I am going to need to run race gas. I'm fully aware that building an engine such as this is going to require more than a few tuning tricks. I appreciate all the input, however, you must realize that I'm in school for High Performance Motorsports, and also, I have some very good mentors in this situation that have worked on Toyota engines prior to this build. Cams are not my weakest point. The rotating assembly is the weakest point. First I must get the bottom end sound so that it can handle what I throw at it. Next, the logical choice would be the head. Cams, valve sprigs and retainers would be my next move. Porting and port matching would be the next logical choice. After having done all of this, obviously the fuel system is going to need to be upgraded to accomodated the new amout of power that this engine is going to be able to produce. Once I get all of this done, the weakest point on the setup will be my turbo, and thats when I will need to upgrade. AT THAT POINT I will then upgrade my turbo to one that will suffice my needs. Thank you for all of the concern, but you must realize that I'm at a point in my life right now where I am learing the tricks of the trade and I have some of the best advice available to me. I know what I need to do, and what I'm GOING to do. I want constructive imput from everyone, but the destructive criticism is not needed what-so-ever. Thank you.

This post has been edited by SeverX13: Jul 2, 2009 - 1:23 AM

huh? lol did you mean guesstimate a whp #?

dont really get what you mean by that, but its all good.

400hp would be ~330-340whp, given ~15-18% drivetrain loss.
totally doable on 510cc injectors.

hopfully you guys will post more pics, dynos, and details of the build this time, so that others on the board can learn from your experiences.

brent, i think its awesome that you are going to school for this kinda thing, the experience you'll gain will be invaluble later in life.
i only wish i had gotten into cars at a younger age, and had the oportiunity to learn the things you'll be learning.

looking forward to seeing the project progress.

I'll just add that the old guess-timate of 18% tranny loss Jives 100% with what I've seen and been told about the s54 and the real-world of what's going on with my setup and my Dyno numbers. So it would be a safe assumption here too.
Not sure what an e153 swap would do to that number - I have no experience with that tranny


x2

oh, i thought we were talking about 400 wheel hp, not crank. my bad.

Yea Manny it was tough to get all a lot of pics the last time(well when the car was at our house)...It was everyone pulling ideas together to get the car running so Brent could get home....this should be so much better where he can take his time and get a pic and write up of each step.

Brent before your car was out of commission was did it backfire often? I forget if your street tune took away some backfire bc Jim has only gotten a quick street tune on mine I'm still waiting on him to be able to take the time to do a tune on mine like he did on yours.

Shannon, when Brent had his car out here before the little mishap, it did backfire a little bit. It was just a little pop in between shifts though. Nothing drastic.

Alright everyone. Just a little update. Yesterday we got Brent's car pushed into the garage, started pulling apart the easy stuff up top. We didn't have much time to work on it then, but engine should be out this upcoming week, and we'll start the surgery!

NICE!
we want carnage pics!
have you guys decided on any specifics as far as pistons, ect? and are you planning on sticking with stock rods, or will you be using 3sgte rods, and haveing the crank turned to fit them, or going aftermarket rods?
its a shame there isnt a tiny bit more meat around the rod bolt end on the 5s rods, or you could just drill them for 3s ARP bolts.
that was the one part of my bottom end that actually made me shake my head when i pulled mine apart, the rod studs are puny.
good luck guys!

Manny, as for right now, I think Brent is going to do just a basic rebuild so that he can drive the car. I have an extra 5S-FE that I pulled out of my Celica that he wants to legitmately build. That is going to be the motor that has all the purdy internals in it!! HOWEVER, the more and more that I'm reading on the 5S-FTE builds, the more and more I think brent should try and find a 98+ block to start with for when he goes big. I've seen the stuff that you've wrote along with some other individuals, and for Brent's high horsepower wants, I think that the 98+ block would be a much better starting platform for him. Just some things that I've been tossing around in my head. Also, Brent wants to be able to rebuild his motor at school, and the classes that he would be able to do that in, he wont have for about another year, with all the pre-requisites and everything. So we'll see. So yeah, as of right now, its just getting new bearings, rings, and the required machining, along with a 100K service (timing belt-water pump) since he did just roll over to 100K the day before the mishap. He just wants to run 10psi again and wait for a new built motor before he goes crazy. haha.

Oh yeah, and we will have TONS of pics this time around!

This post has been edited by boosted185: Jul 11, 2009 - 4:00 PM