6G Celicas Forums

i had a 2zz in my corolla before i had a 3s-ge beams in my celica, both cars weighed the same, both cars used the same amount of fuel but the beams would leave the 2zz behind by a lot, its just a much stronger engine if everything else is equal, the only penalty is the weight. That was with a stock rev limit too, the beams unit is quite happy revving up to 8000rpm with an aftermarket ecu, you can go higher too if you dont mind risking your bottom end.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 11, 2009 - 12:28 PM

very nice reply's everybody this turned out to be a better thread than i thought. Oo cant wait to get that engine....

you cant count the fensport celica. that car had upteen thousand invested in it.

back to what i was saying, you put in a 200HP 3S-GTE in a 7th gen and it will be slower. you guys think the 3S is so great. yes its great by what its capable of, but in stock trim, its not that powerful of an engine. and it weighs a freaking ton! the entire 2ZZ long block weighs about the same as a stripped 3S block. so when you get power to weight ratio involved, yes its going to make the car slower. also the E153 weighs about 30 lbs more than the C60, so there is another weight addtion.

there are enough mods out there to make a 2ZZ plenty powerful enough now. it will cost over 6000 to install a 3S-GTE including the engine and tranny. then there are mods needed to make it faster. where simple turbo kits are available for the 2ZZ for less than 4000 with management. its simple math

uhh 200hp thats a usdm 2nd gen 3sgte. get a 3rd gen 3sgte from japan with 250hp that should do something

I was just going to say that!!

A 3s-gte can be tuned to 300bhp+ quite easily. Front mount intercooler, boost controller, fuel pressure regulator, 100 octane fuel, less restrictive pipework etc. None of which are too expensive or hard to get.

I think the power difference would overwrite the weight difference?

But it would be expensive, unless you where an engineer or something.

But the 2ZZ is a nice engine and seems to have a Lot of happy owners so........

Also 3s-gte's were being produced in japan up as far as 2007!

A 2007 caldina GT-4 engine swap to a 6gen? thats a different thread altogether.

i think it would be pretty pointless swapping out a 2zz for a 3s-ge in a gen 7 as that money could be spent on the 2zz and really both are capable of big power with the right work done to it, i guess the only weak point of the 2zz is its gearbox, but you can probably bolt up the e series box from a 4agze as there really strong.

i still think next to the honda k20 the beams is up there as the best 2 litre engine out there, if you turbo a beams instead of a 3s-gte you end up with a powerband getting on for 2000rpm larger, the turbo will spool up about 1000rpm earlier than a 3s-gte thanks to the vvti, and the ones that have been built so far have managed the same power figures as 3s-gte's but with bigger powerbands, using less boost on smaller turbo's just because the heads so much better, so there is less heat to deal with, also the beams block is the last revision and strongest of all, you just need to swap the pistons/rods and you have the best 3s engine, better than even the caldina gt-four engine.

actually I have made it possible to bolt up the E153 to a 2ZZ....ssshhhh dont tell anyone yet

lift is pretty fun, but torque all over is much nicer.

ok now that what i do not understand! whats the purpose of torque.

honda integra type r 195 hp at 8,000rpm, and 130 lb torque at 7,000 rpm

toyota celica ss-III with 3sge Beams, 197hp at 6,000 rpm and 152 lb of torque at 6,000 rpm.

so the 3sge has 22 more lbs of torque vs the b18c5. what so great about that???

torque is what moves you, hp is just imaginary.

your 7afe has an awesome torque curve, its pretty much in peak torque from the time you step on the gas until you hit 5800 RPM. the 2zzge has very little torque below 3000 rpm. you have to be up around 3000-5000 rpm to feel torque like the 7afe has between 2000-5000 rpm. of course then you get up into lift and thats just alot of fun, but its fleeting fun. its there and gone so fast.

Torque is the ability for something to rotate something else.

yes, it turns the earth under your car.

There you have it.

from an engineering perspective, torque is the rotational force for every unit distance at a given time, while horsepower is the rate at which torque changes per unit time. in most cases, torque and horsepower go hand in hand..

so torque is to speed, as horsepower is to acceleration..

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Aug 12, 2009 - 11:16 PM

I thought it was the other way around?

Its the delivery of the torque that makes the difference. The 3S is available from around 3200rpm, 90% of torque on my engine was in then. I was hitting 132ft/lbs at 3200 and 152 ft at maximum around 5200ish.

the way i always think about it is to really forget bhp cause its really only a small part of the puzzle and not that usefull, and think about how much torque the engine generates and over what rpm range it is generating that torque, from that you then take into account the gearing which will be dictated by the rpm range, because its torque at the wheels that is making your car move. once you get your head round that its easier to tell what engines are comparible, because those with low torque but a large rpm ceiling matched to correct gearing can end up with the same torque at the wheels as a large capacity v6 that doesnt rev so high, the only difference in the end being power delivery, ultimate speed of the car can end up the same.

WOW..

ok there was a few weeks ago I saw on ebay that there was this 7th gen which has a 3sgte swap..
IDK why he was selling it.. IDK why he chose 3sgte to put in there..



I dont have any idea for the performance b/c the account user account was closed and cant watch the video.

feasible or not it has been done

here's a link with pics if the swap

http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcarsfile...rtNewCelica.htm

thought this might be interesting given the discussion on power and torque bands etc, years ago i considered swapping the beams for a v6, madness i know but i like to explore options and i did some maths and decided it was a waste of time, these calcs ignore transmission loss, given they use the same box and assume the wheels are the same size to keep things simple, also assuming you shift at the point of peak power, and assuming the engines are advertised power. In practice i dont know how realistic they would be but interesting all the same, i know in reality they both rev out to 7400 but from every v6 i've seen power tails of massivly after about 5500rpm.

this is the 1mz-fe vs the redtop beams. First works out the torque at peak power, then torque at the wheels in each gear, and the mph at which its optimum to shift. make of it what you will, all that torque is only really relevant if you have the right gearing to go with it, 4th gear in the v6 and 3rd gear in the beams paints a pretty interesting picture remember its just for fun so no flaming me please

1mz-fe 190bhp @5400rpm

190 * 5252 = 997880

997880 / 5400 = 184.8

184.8 * 3.285 * 4.176 = 2535.1 - 28 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1512.6 - 48 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 1020.2 - 71 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 793.3 - 91 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 632.8 - 114 mph


beams 3s-ge 197bhp @7000rpm

197 * 5252 = 1034644

1034644 / 7000 = 147.8

147.8 * 3.285 * 4.176 = 2027.5 - 37 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1209.7 - 62 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 815.9 - 91 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 634.5 - 118 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 506.1 - 147 mph

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 13, 2009 - 2:21 PM

BEAMS is too high compression for a turbo.

An interesting way to look at torque vs. hp is a chainsaw. Everyone knows Stihl makes great chainsaws, and Husqvarna isn't doing too bad themselves. The difference between the two is that Stihl makes their chainsaws with torque, and Husqvarna tries to make the chain spin faster. The idea behind Stihl is that they want the chain to spin, no matter what. Husqvarna on the other hand wants their chain to spin ridiculously fast to get through the wood. Both methods work just fine, but once the wood gets tough, the Husqvarna lacks the torque to keep the blade spinning as fast and won't cut as well as the Stihl, that is still going.

Basically, torque is going to keep your car moving, even under load, such as heavy acceleration. But hp is nice too