6G Celicas Forums

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

This is a thread for those of you who are more inclined to believe that we are not alone in the universe; for the type of tuner who does not accept that the earth is round or the sky is blue just because we've been told that all our lives so we continue to believe it without questioning it and without any proof.

Ever since I was born My family has always driven toyotas. I have an undying love for toyotas even though they are currently outclassed in the performance arena by almost every other manufacturer. I have actually written emails to toyota headquarters concerning their intentions for future performance cars and a possibility of the return of the Supra. Their response was basically that toyota is no longer intent on high performance road car production but more interested in eco friendly transport alternatives. In short toyota has gone green.

The obvious question now follows... So... what about die hard toyota performance fans? How do we keep up with newer offerings from other manufacturers who continue to research and develop high performance cars while toyota's performance era struggles to keep up with newer technology? Is it possible to compete with the mitsubishi evo X or subaru's new STI impreza hatch with the likes of the celica ST205?


Well I can assure you that the limiting factor in attempting to find an answer to that question will ultimately depend on what you are inclined to accept or believe. I certainly do not have the answers and while I can assure you that the 3SGTE is outclassed by most of today's factory engines I firmly believe that with a slight adjustment in expectations from this toyota performance platform many of the current beliefs about this widely discredited motor can be proven otherwise.

I've started beginning to observe what sets other manufacturers apart in 2010. What are the targets they set for full production performance cars, some of their goals and expectations. The result has been a readjustment in my own goals and expectations for my ST205 as unrealistic and impossible as they may seem.

2010/11 OEM factory equipped performance cars currently differ from the ST205 celica in several ways including the following:

1) better in cabin road noise control
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
3) navigation
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
7) service interval notifications
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
9) better suspension and handling
10 better fuel economy
11) better idle characteristics
12) shorter braking distances
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
15) better tires
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
17) higher horse power outputs
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
19) significantly better aesthetics
20) ergonomically superior

Not hardly an exhaustive list but you begin to get the picture. Toyota performance cars are being left behind in more ways than just a quartermile time or highway run.
It should be easy enough to fix the quartermile time or highway runs by dialing up the boost by whatever the currently employed approach is but It will take some doing to fix the actual gap that exists in a broader sense.

If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you but I am never happy when I realize that a luxury SUV such as the Audi Q7 will simply walk away from the ST205 on the highway without so much as a grunt from its engine or even a puff of smoke. All the while having the windows rolled up and possibly not even realizing that I was trying my darndest to keep up with it. In all fairness to the ST205 it is in fact electronically speed limited but I'm just making a general observation.
In the year 1997 when the car was manufactured all it would have taken was a gentle hint of throttle opening at that speed to disappear from the horizon of any approaching average luxury SUV that was available then.

I have been immersed in this school of thought even before the year 2010 as I have always been fascinated by the irony that OEM ECU tuning is usually light years ahead of any aftermarket ECU's programmable options. I would have thought that as good as the OEM is since they must work within a production budget the aftermarket tuner should always be best since the only consideration is performance.

When Nissan launched the GTR R35 It finally dawned on me what was missing. There is very little and usually no focus on street performance tuning from the aftermarket. The aftermarket is saturated with full race spec tuner hardware and the other side of the coin involves very expensive "ricerware" that is more about shiny polished chrome finishes and bright colored silicone hoses etc than it is about performance. Nissan was able to beat all 3 previous versions of the skyline in every corner on a circuit test in japan using a stock R35 even though the R32 R33 and R34 skylines were full tuner vehicles ranging between 400 and 600 horse power. The R35 GTR is also probably heavier than the production machinery that built it. So one can't help but ask how on earth did they get it to be that fast?

Well while you may be thinking that the average ST205 owner does not have access to the nurburgring race circut for testing and also that Nissan's research and development budget for the R35 is wildly beyond the dreams of most lotto winners, there are a few subtle factors that affect the private tuner with equal impact as the most wealthy car manufacturer. Nissan does not have a single red or blue greddy or hks colorful silicone hose under the hood of that car. They did not spend even 10 seconds considering what tone or pitch the blow off valve should make when it dumps air into the atmosphere. Their goals were easily outlined for them by setting an overall goal of achieving a certain lap time on the nurburgring. Anything that affected that goal negatively had to go. And at the same time several other things that were previously frowned upon were utilized such as the weight of the car because at the end of the day the test results were there to prove that the goal was achieved.

If this same approach is used when considering modifications to be done to the ST205 It should be only a matter of time before people start wondering if toyota has reintroduced a limited production run of a higher powered faster celica ST205 in an attempt to show that they are still heavyweights in the performance arena.

Getting that off my chest It should now be easy to understand why I am hell bent on finding an easily repeatable way to utilize cam phasing (VVT / VVTi /Dual VVTi) with the 3SGTE platform.
It should also be easy to understand even if not accept why I will not settle for a car that idles at 1400 RPM because of the cams necessary to make 600 + horse power
It should be understandable as well that off boost fuel economy expectations should be as good as or better than factory spec regardless of on boost peak horse power figures.
I'm also one who frowns upon noisy exhausts and fuel dumping knock control measures that result in momentary clouds of black smoke.
I am also hell bent on retaining the factory air cleaner system as long as the flow bench clears it for use.
In short the differences in the before and after photos of the engine bay after adding over 400 more horses to the wheels should be an exercise for a CSI team.

This post has been edited by 6gtfour: Mar 31, 2010 - 1:52 AM

i have to say i dissagree with you on many many accounts... and heres why..


1) better in cabin road noise control
a... its a sports car, really... who cares? if you do, then buy an audi

2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
a.... again... electrics= more things to go wrong, il take being a good driver over fancy yaw diffs in evos etc..

3) navigation
a... its a called a tomtom, nav = more weight = pointless waste of money.

4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
a.... my st205 does have the multi speaker component system, yours obviously has the 4 speakers, not 8

5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
a... with less than 25mpg i dont want to see how fast my money dissapears thanks.

6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
a... again, all pointless crap for a sportscar, all i want is water and oil temp and oil pressure thankyou

7) service interval notifications
a... you should have the brains to know when to service your car if you own one of these.. if not, sell the car to someone who does.

8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
a... again, if your too lazy to use your eyes, you shouldnt own the car.

9) better suspension and handling
a... what planet are you on? with some good struts the gtfour handles like its on rails, ive out classed multiple r34 gtr and r33 gtr on the ring and donington park and bedford

10 better fuel economy
a... what do you expect, a 2l with anywhere upto 280bhp out the factory? if you want economy or moan about fuel consumption, buy a ford fiesta

11) better idle characteristics
a... what are you on? mine idles smooth at 750rpm, if yours doesnt, its crap

12) shorter braking distances
a.... on drugs or something? the st205 has awesome brakes, good pads like carbotechs will stop you dead far quicker than any evo or poohbaru

13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
a... its a toyota, ive owned it 4 years and have had only regular maintanence that i would do on any other car....

14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
a.. its a sports car, built for speed with a little comfort, you dont like, buy a boring car

15) better tires
a... its called a tyre shop

16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
a... buy a hid kit, its not like they had those lights back then, look at the r32 and r33 liners, they are the same crap headlights

17) higher horse power outputs
a... it did, it was far more than the 240 quoted as proven by multiple dyno's

18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
a... what isnt smooth, i get very smooth power and usable boost of 1.2bar from 3600rpm

19) significantly better aesthetics
a.. you need to go to specsavers, the st205 is a fantastic looking car and doesnt look a day old.

toyota's coming back with a line up of sports cars, ft-86, lf-a, and possibly the ft-hs (supra) but is still in the rumour phase. toyota went green to attract regular day-to-day drivers and become #1. i'm glad to hear that toyota is back in building sports cars, i just hope they're as good as their 90's masterpieces.

why waste time replying if you're happy with your ST205 as is? This thread is not for contented owners.

Feel free to email toyota about the rumoured performance sports cars they are supposedly developing. Don't just listen to hearsay. If you'd like I can forward any of you the emails from toyota where they clearly state that the only things they had in the pipeline were the (now released) Lexus IS-F and Lexus LF-A.

I replied to your post just for the heck of it. It is still a simple fact that since toyota isn't going to produce anything on the low end platform that can keep up with the competition, those who wish to stay competitive in terms of performance as well as class with an ST205 have their work cut out for them.

i will reply in detail later, but in simple terms, again you are wrong, there are many st205's out there with massive bhp and will quite easily hang with the said cars you think are the benchmark, the build we have just finished on my brothers st205 for one will decimate alot of motors, mine being moderately modded can out pace and handle alot of things on race tracks and mine is just a base to show what they can do... so make what you will, if you cant make them quick with small simple mods there is something going wrong..

for emphasis...


The build you have just finished on your brother's motor may be astonishingly good. But ask yourself this question. Do you think you would get the owner of an evo X or 2010 STI hatch facinated enough with what you did to the car to consider selling their car to buy your brother's own? If not why not? What have you had to give up to achieve your power objective in terms of comfort and drivability? Furthermore what was missing from the picture to begin with that is now commonplace in 2010.
Well answer those questions and you only begin to scratch the surface of what i'm talking about here.
I don't care how fast you can make the ST205. If that was the focal point of this discussion then we would be talking about tubbing out the car installing a roll cage doing a balls out horse power dyno queen build and putting racing slicks on the thing to make it go hard. Sadly even after doing all that someone may just fork out the cash for a factory sports car that will still hand you your breakfast.
So my school of thought continues to be valid. Does the ST205 owner in the year 2010 accept that his car is limited to the technology of a fogotten decade? Does she/he accept that creature comforts and better street drivability is not important as long as the necessary things have been done to ensure that the car goes fast enough to stay in front of the competition? well we already know what my position is on this. If you think that my opinion is invalid I can respect and appriciate that seriously. However I would prefer to keep this thread headed in the direction that I intended it to. Start your own thread if you must or thrash it out with me in pm.

A lot of what you're saying is subjective...your point concerning interiors is null because that's an opinion. I happen to think my Celica has one of the better interiors on the road today.

The youngest GT-4 you can buy, to my knowledge, was built in 1999. Do you really expect the performance of that vehicle, in factory form, to be up to par with its counterparts from the current model year, 2010? No. If it was, the automotive industry wouldn't have been doing sh!t for development and improvements in the past 11 years.

i tought this post was aabout something cool coming into the market, too long, did not even finish.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you are replying either without fully reading all that was mentioned before or without a full understanding of what is being said. Let's take your second point first...
If you read my first post carefully I'm simply suggesting that there is a gap in technology between the ST205 and any 2010 performance car as one would expect. One can no longer expect toyota to bridge this gap as their attentions are focused in a different direction. Therefore I thought in an attempt to bring the ST205 to an overall equivalent or higher level than what exists today, It was worth considering some of the things that newer cars have the the ST205 does not.
so to answer your question directly...
NO! I do NOT!

what i wish i could expect is that instead of jumping to another brand to achieve higher overall refinement and performance synonymous with sports cars of 2010, that die hard toyota fans would examine what the factors are that create this gap and attempt to address them with solutions that are available in 2010 that were not available in 1999 and before. I'm hoping that the approach taken when upgrading and modifying any aspect of the car would involve a thought process that would result in a finished product or result that is on par with what is expected in 2010 and not 1999.

To respond to your first statement while your celica may have one of the better interiors on the road in can be made to look more in touch with the new era of sports cars. But I will agree with you that it is simply my opinion and entirely subjective. But then again so is everything else that I posted.

I won't reply point by point to this but I'm with you, I love my ST205, it could never be replaced by another car... BUT I'm not satisfied with everything about my ST205. I've already spent the value of my car in maintenance alone, I could spend tripple the value of my car in making everything the way I want it if I could afford to.

What's pissing me off about my engine especially since I couldn't get another CT20b when mine shat itself I ended up with a TD04e upgraded CT26 which is completely rubbish when mated up to the ridiculously long ratios of the E154F gearbox. I get smoked by NA's low RPM response when following a car that cant corner at the speed my ST205 can (ie, situations where I have to pull out of a corner in 2nd gear at 2000 rpm), the tradeoff is that my turbo power doesnt die off at 6000 rpm it keeps pulling harder.

I know what you're saying about VVT-i and as with the other thread you posted in, the ST246 Caldina GT4 has a 3S-GTE equipped with VVT-i so have a look into this one.
As far as I know of the Beams head swap is out of the question aswell as making W2A IC mounting near impossible.

Perhaps what we need to look into is the 6-speed WRC gearbox? Or looking to other makes / models to adapt a 6-speed gearbox so that you can focus on top end power without having to worry about getting caught in a low response / low power point in your rev range when coming out of tight corners? Or is this completely out of the question because of 4WD?


Also weight, What shall we do about weight? the GT4 has a good 200Kgs over the Evo and WRX

ahhhhhh *deep sigh of relief* finally somebody understands what i'm saying. Well like I said I don't have all the answers. All I can promise to do is share my experience as I attempt to figure out exactly the same thought process that you're now having.
I also drive a lightly tuned Toyota trueno 1999 model with a 4AGE 20 valve blacktop engine and I can assure you that even though it makes less peak power it feels so much more refined in its power delivery especially on the highway that I can't help but wish that I could make the ST205 a multiple of the performance factor that exists in the 4AGE 20 valve form.
You can also feel the positive effects the lightness of the trueno has on actual performance in braking and cornering maneuvers.
The trueno feels like a more "intelligent" car whenever you put it through its paces on the roads. The power delivery of the ST205 seems more fumbled and the handling more clumsy.
I intend to improve both power and handling as well as aesthetics and ergonomics of the 205 but I have no plans of giving up drivability in any form to achieve these goals. Furthermore I'm actually going to attempt to make it even more street worthy than it was when It came from the showroom.

I feel confident that I can pull it off since I pretty much did the same thing with the Trueno transforming it with very subtle modifications into a refined well balanced machine still producing the factory 165 horse power but despite that it was able to hang around my friend's 390AWHP mitu evolution so aggressively on the highway recently that he passed his exit running me down and he actually passed like 5 other exits before he was able to catch up. You would think that with that much horse power in an evo (and TRUST ME he's probably the best driver I know) it would be silly to think that catching up to a relatively stock toyota trueno with a blacktop 20V 4AGE engine would be much of a task.

Rest assured however that it is not that straightforward in the world of performance. I intend to apply all of the things i've learned so far into making the ST205 faster in the ways that really matter. Dyno figures hardly tell much of the real story unless you're in a straight line drag race. And lets face it not a single GT four owner anywhere in the world spends more than about 5% of their time in their celicas on the drag strip.

the "intelligent" feel your talking about is due to weight loss and good power to weight ratio.


If you ever drive a mazda miata you will notice that car handles so well. The miata might not create the most laterial G's as other cars, but its balance between horsepower and grip is so well matched you feel like it belongs in another class.

The problem you have with the GT4 is the weight. The weight of the car makes it feel sloppy along with dulling its handling and braking. So as soon as you lighten up the car you will notice more crisp responsive steering along with much better acceleration. But weight reduction has its major flaw. The lighter you make a car; the less planted it will feel at higher speeds along with more road noise and a rougher ride.

Its simply a trade off, you can not have a very light car that is great on handling and acceleration and be good at high speeds with a great ride.

See this is what I was talking about in the beginning. You believe and accept that. I simply refuse to. Not in the year 2010. I'd believe that in 1997 but not today. Road noise can be controlled in a lightened car by several newer light weight solutions now. Plus the nissan GTR R35 disprooves the theory that lighter means better handling entirely.
Maybe the answer to the problem is in a slightly more technical solution. I'm sure there exists a suitable alternative that allows you to have the best of both worlds.
I think we just need to look harder for solutions to our problems with the car. Some may be costly too costly even but I'm sure that generally we can build a much better overall package now by doing the right modifications than we could have back when the car was still in production.

you can not use the GTR as an example. It defy the laws of physics!

but kidding aside, the gtr/EVo is only great at handling because engineers spent millions of dollars tuning the car with very fancy computers to controls how the car acts. For our typical tuner to replicate this would require millions of dollars and hours or race track tuning at which point your better off buying a gtr.

Yes road noise can be controlled by electronic acoustic cancellation. But the RIDE comfort is going to compromised because of the weight(there is a reason why Bentley weigh so much). There is no way to make a lighter car ride as well as a heavy one.
The only technology that is out there to offset ride comfort is radar road sensing; along with electronic controlled dampeners. But this cost millions of dollars to develop and adapt to your own car.

Basically what it boils down to is. Yes there is the technology out there, but these technology required a ton of software to implement into your own car. Your average joe does not have the skills to hack into car makers firmware and develope and customized there own. Even if you manage to create your own software to work with your car, your still face the extremely high cost of the parts.

This post has been edited by Hanyo: Apr 1, 2010 - 12:09 PM

Only because the GT-R is pretty much a robot, whereas GT-4's do not even have traction control, as far as I know. Same with Evos and STis, they're marvelous because they're chock full of technology.

Agreed on the Miata, Hanyo. My mom (stereotypically) has an '08 MX-5. I have to say that I like my Celica's handling more now because her suspension os so soft and tips like a barge...but I still have that engine that tries to fight me out of corners. Her car has such brilliantly neutral balance, it's beautiful. It might be lowered in its lifetime as well, it'll be a go-kart then...

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Apr 1, 2010 - 12:22 PM

I believe that with the installation of better limited slip differentials you can have remarkably improved cornering out of the celica. It will take some tuning to get right but it will not cost millions. Torque sensing LSD's have been one of the things that were a bid deal back in their day but have lost their edge to better designs from companies like cusco. It is one of the things I plan to look into to improve all out cornering performance.

If you don't want to install an LSD upgrade you should at least consider the next step I would take which would be to save up a couple grand and install a good coilover system from a reputable company. I know Ksport and such are popular but I can't say for certain they would work anywhere near as well as a set from companies such as DMS. I will most likely be installing a set of fully adjustable DMS coilovers and starting with a neutral setting and adjusting the high and low speed bump and rebound adjustment till it's just right. I think it's worth mentioning that they are known for remarkably smooth ride quality and road bump absorption while being very firm in cornering due to their use of progressive rate springs with perfectly matched dampers. Really great stuff you may want to read up on but a tad expensive.

Ok granted the GTR was developed with a budget you and I can only dream of but think of this. I'm sure you might have observed that whenever you drive your ST205 and i mean really DRIVE IT... that you can feel the heat of the exhaust around the floor area where it passes. Simply dropping the exhaust and installing some adhesive floor and tunnel shield from thermo tec would resolve that problem and no matter how hard you run the car you won't have to feel that heat build up. Result? One step forward into the 21st century standard for car comfort. There are so many similar little tweaks like this that you can do to the car that by the time you're finished it is really at a different level.

I've gotten really good results by just adding normal heat wadding under the floor carpet and along the exhaust/driveshaft tunnel in my other cars. It really makes a difference in road noise levels. The additional weight added will not affect handling because of how low it is in the car and apart from that it probably wont add up to more than about 5 or so lbs anyway. Adding 5 lbs of weight to the floor of a car cannot possibly affect a car's performance.

I would also like to explore the possibility of using the water to air setup and convert it to refridgerant based intelligent cooling system with a programmable electronic controller so that the intercooler can be as intelligent as the ECU in controlling intake air temperature by being able to allow heated on boost air to interface with a heatsink that is well below ambient air temperature so that excessive on boost throttle use will probably never result in detonation. These things seem far fetched but I swear they're more possible than you would at first think. short of that there already exists an intelligent intercooler water spray system that sprays a mist of water at the intercooler which is incredibly effective at keeping intake air temperatures at fixed values no matter how hard you drive. It is so well engineered that it actually learns from your driving habits and starts to predict when to start spraying the intercooler even before you get on the gas pedal.
The same company also offers a cheap boost control solution that controls boost by engine load instead of throttle position so that you get more precise throttle control of the car since for example you won't get the same boost level at 4000 RPM part throttle as you would get at 4000 RPM wide open throttle.
I could go on about gadgets like this eternally. They all add up to a daily driver experience that is more poised to hang with anything the manufacturers of newer sports cars have brought to the table.

OP- you're an absolute idiot for comparing a car that was built in the mid 90's for homologation reasons with brand new luxury sports cars.

Technology has advanced, and the 3SGTE didn't. If you want all of the options you are complaining about then go buy an Audi and you'll be set.

The ST205 isn't supposed to be a nice smooth ride. It's a rally car. Ever driven a WRX or STI? Their loud, their power delivery is harsh, and the suspension is stiff. Its a car that is only on the roads so that they can race in WRC. The ST205 is the exact same, but a decade older. Technology wasn't as advanced as today's luxury cars back then.


You want a fast ST205 that has a silent cabin and fancy features like fuel economy and other idiot gauges? Drop in a 2.2 stroker with a GT35R turbo kit. Ditch the stock cluster for a STACK unit, and lay down a couple inches of sound deadener on the wheel wells, roof, floor, firewall, etc.

This. Comparing an ST205 to new sports cars is an abomination. Of course all these little things are going to have improved in a decade plus. As SwissFerdi said, if we hadn't made progression in all these areas, the automotive industry would be a disgrace right now. And again, it's a rally-built car.

By the time you spend the money and labor doing everything to make this ST205 supercar, you could've bought yourself any number of 2010 sports/luxury sports cars that have all these things you want. And for less, too. Oh and by the way, add throttle position sensors instead of drive-by-wire and electronically assisted steering instead of a steering linkage - they're standard on the Yaris, not even a sports car.

Think about it. Parts, your own time or someone elses, shipping, electronics, molding an entire new interior, etc. etc. is going to cost you not millions, but I'm willing to bet hundreds of thousands.

Who cares if the place in your floor where your drivetrain is gets warm? Why would you touch it anyway? Who cares about road noise? Personally, I'd rather hear what's going on outside my cabin rather than have it quiet with air rushing over my windows - maybe I'll hear my tires squealing to keep their grip and slow down around that curve on the track, instead of the sound of air before I lose control and smash into the wall. I'd rather hear my engine than not - what if there's a knock or clink noise that would otherwise be deafened? What if my car makes weird noises when I'm not on the track and I don't hear them through the sound deadening material?

Aesthetics - why does our car still turn heads? I was turning into the car wash today on a busy road, and a kid in his 90's Camaro saw my car and he was glued to it until he passed me. I have stock rims on and a chipped hood. This car still looks great, in 2010. To be honest, everything on the road today except Mazdas look relatively the same. The interior of our cars is what some automakers today took cues from - just look at the Zs sloped dashboard - where does that look familiar from? It looks so fancy because most of it is brushed aluminum, not padded vinyl.

Handling - a carbon fiber hatch and hood will do wonders to lower your center of gravity, improve acceleration and handling. From there, just make more stuff lighter, or move things - battery to trunk, lightweight fly, remove seats (not that a luxury car would do this), etc.

And as for all the accessories like an oil light, the Celica already warns you when your oil level is low, the light comes on. Brakes are wearing down or hanging up, e-brake light comes on. It has a trip and odometer. Wanna know how your mpg is doing? Reset your trip at the pump, next time you fill up, trip meter/gallons filled. Pull out your cell phone, don't even need a pencil and paper, takes two seconds. Instantaneous MPG, there's a formula for that, but I don't know it offhand...something like (engine displacement/RPM)*MPH, I think. Yes, that would make sense - my 1.8 (1800cc) does approx 3000RPM at 65mph - (1800/3000)=.6*65=39 - EPA estimate for our cars highway is 37. Wanna find out how far you're gonna go? Current MPG (Formula above)*Gallons left in tank. Presto, fuel range. Gas is low, gas light comes on, even if it's not accurate all the time. Wanna do something cool? Find a way to put in a returning gas needle instead of a nonreturning one. That's always bugged me after having my Sunfire.

If you can't pop your hood to check your oil level, coolant level, brake fluid, windshield washer fluid, etc. on a regular basis, own a brand new car or don't own a car. The Celica doesn't spray it's washer's very hard when it's low on fluid - time to fill up. Better idle, more oil. Make sure it's full, and you don't need an oil change - the I4s like to eat oil, just by way of the engine working. Better braking? Get better pads, bigger rotors, more advanced stuff from a lexus or etc. that fits on your Celica. Better tires, stick summer tires on a set of rims - automakers use the exact same stuff we can buy at a tire shop. More visibility, either HIDs or Sylvania produces new super bright halogen bulbs. They're focused AND brighter! More horsepower, modify your engine, or since you want factory installed options, fabricate a better "stock" airbox, "stock" exhaust manifold, etc. etc. If you want smoother power delivery, supercharge your engine instead of turboing it - no turbo lag, more torque from start to finish.

You sound like you're going back and forth between building a luxury Celica and whining about how Toyota doesn't make performance cars - yet they just released the F series in the Lexus and the FT-86 is scheduled for release in 2012, and TRD keeps making Release Series TCs that are tuned for performance. Toyota has not and is not abandoning performance, especially with a new, self-admitted "car nut" CEO.

And yes, not only did I read your entire post, but the entire thread, prior to posting my response.

This post has been edited by Espo: Apr 2, 2010 - 4:04 AM