[5S-FE] Cylinder Head Building Info., Gathering information on parts for building a 5S-FE head. Options

[Syaoran]

I am gathering information for doing headwork, mainly cams and cross compatibility for supporting mods for adding cams to the 5S-FE head.
I want this thread to be a community effort to gather information and have it available for our members. Feel free to correct anything that is wrong and to add info (numbers, calculations, articles, references, links, etc) for the benefit of the thread.

There is very little info put together, most of it is scattered all over. I'll start with a list of the things I am gathering info on and any help and links with proof, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Please, avoid posts like "pointless, 5S-FE head is ****, better do a 3S-GTE head swap", there's many posts like that already. The point of this thread is to gather the information for feasible upgrades to the 5S-FE head, to enable it to breathe better, and perhaps until a higher RPM, one that is both realistic and usable in a daily car. All of the modifications I plan on doing to my car have two priorities in mind: reliability and streetability.

Disclaimer: I am in no way a professional, and with that in mind this post is meant to only share information available in a compiled manner.

With that said, here's a list of the things to cover:
A. Overview
1. Valves
2. Valve Springs
3. Valve Spring Retainers
4. Valve Lifters (buckets, shims, shim-under buckets, shimless buckets)
5. Cams
6. Headgasket
7. Headbolts
8. Porting and Polishing, Valve jobs

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Overview

The biggest issue with our stock head is that the aftermarket never did anything for us. Valves, springs, retainers, buckets, cams, headgaskets, etc. they all have to be obtained from other engine's cylinder head parts. There's two main engines whose heads have many components that are compatible, and that is the only way we can upgrade: by using either OEM or aftermarket parts from those engines.

Why would OEM be a consideration? Well, our head is an economy head, made with parts to keep costs down. They are extremely reliable within their intended use. However, that intended use is fuel efficiency. There was no performance in mind when the 5S-FE engine was built. However, in what I would say was an attempt to save money in R&D, Toyota decided to use the same part specifications for many engines, including their performance engines (with heads made by Yamaha, -GE heads like the 3S-GTE and 2JZ-GTE heads), making many parts compatible in either a plug-and-play manner, or with some modification required. In the case of the cylinder heads, the former is true, and that is what this topic intends to cover: what parts and to what extent are they compatible.


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Valves

I'll start with a quote from a reputable member of the MR2 forums. In our case, only revision 2 5S-FE engines concern us. 6GCs only came with rev 2 5S-FE, which differ from rev 1 engines in that the heads are very different. Basically our heads are better than the previous revision's head.

I don't think you are going to see much of a hp gain over 1mm oversized valves unless you turbo the motor and start shooting for numbers over 300rwhp.

Yes, the stock 3sgte has larger valves by 1mm. The 91-92 5sfe will use stock 3sgte valves for +1mm and 93+ will use stock 2jzgte valves for +1mm. 2mm oversized versions of these are simply +1mm versions of the 3sgte and 2jzgte valves.

[...] for most people the 1mm oversized valves are not only going to be the best bang for the buck but also the most you'll probably be able to use. With those, cams and a good port job it will flow more like a 3sge.

Also be aware that 2mm oversized valves are not a simple replacement mod. As you mentioned they require new seats and stronger springs but they also require deshrouding in the combustion chamber and custom pistons if you want to keep your motor non-interference. With mine I might as well have just had flat top pistons until I enlarged the reliefs because the valves were too big for the holes. They also will change your compression ratio depending on how they are installed and how much material is removed around them. My CR after I did the headwork and had them seated for the best airflow went from 9.5:1 to 10.1:1. It's now at 9.8:1 after making the valve reliefs bigger and tomorrow I am going to remove some more from the chamber to get it back close to 9.5:1.

Quoted from a topic in MR2OC (I don't know if I'm allowed to link to other forums, but I will post the link for the sake of reference: http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=91233&am...ersized+valves)

There are some points of information here:

1. Our valves have compatible dimensions with 2JZ-GTE valves.
2. 2mm oversized valves can be fit into our heads by using 1mm oversized 2JZ-GTE valves.

* Stock 2JZ-GTE Valves = 1mm oversized 5S-FE valves
* 1mm Oversized 2JZ-GTE Valves = 2mm oversized 5S-FE valves

With proper machining, 2JZ-GTE Valves can be fit into our heads. What good is this information? Bigger valves means more airflow, given you have the means to increase it. The best gains from this modification would be seen in a forced induction application, but an N/A with proper mods can also benefit from larger valves.

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Valve Springs

A Valve Spring upgrade is only necessary if you are increasing cam lift, or RPM limit, or both. Otherwise, refreshing your tired springs will be the best thing to do. With that said, 2JZ-GTE springs are also compatible ith ours. Stock 2JZ-GTE springs are an upgrade and can be used with stock 2JZ-GTE or stock 5S-FE retainers (more on that later), but if you want a complete upgrade, aftermarket titanium springs from companies like Ferrea are a great choice (at an extra cost of course). You will need to use retainers made for those springs however.

1. 2JZ-GTE springs for a stock reinforcement upgrade, good for raising lift and rev limit safely.
2. Titanium Springs and Retainers for 2JZ-GTE also fit, but are expensive and most of the time cannot be used with stock retainers.

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Valve Spring Retainers

The retainers are just that, retainers, which lock the spring onto the valve so that it can be opened via de lifters, and closed after the lobe passes over the lifter.

There's not much to it, basically you either keep stock retainers (a new OEM set would be the best choice for either 5S-FE springs or 2JZ-GTE springs) or you get aftermarket valves with titanium retainers.

1. 2JZ-GTE or 5S-FE retainers work fine with either engine's valve springs.

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Valve Lifter Buckets

This is where things get interesting. There's three types of designs for lifters in our kind of head.

1. Shim-Over Bucket
2. Shim-Under Bucket
3. Shimless Bucket

Shim-Over Bucket
Our lifters are a "shim-over bucket" design, where a shim (similar to a coin but with different diameter and thickness) lies on top of a bucket, a cylindrical piece of metal with space inside to fit a shim of varying thickness.

While it is easy to service (shims are very cheap compared to whole buckets, $1-$2 vs $12-$15 per shim vs shimless buckets, and you have to only replace the shim while adjusting valves, vs the whole bucket), the design is not appropriate for use in a high-performance head with a higher RPM and a higher cam lift. This design leaves a high probability of making the buckets spit the shims out, leaving a valve(or valves) permanently closed while also having a shim flying around inside the head breaking into pieces.

Basically, the shim-over bucket design is limited to whatever the engine came limited to from the factory. In our case, that's less than 8mm lift and less than 6500RPM. They could be used for higher, but that is of course dangerous and not something you'd want to be willing to risk.

Shim-Under Buckets
3S-GTE engines of our years came with a "shim-under bucket" design, where the shim is on top of the valve spring retainer. This allows for a safer operation at higher lift and higher RPM than our head's design, but you still run the risk of having shims spit out from under the buckets if you rev too high or have too high of a lift. (I've seen the aftermath of a 3S-GTE with GSC cams with I think it was 11mm lift spitting more than 1 shim into the head, and breaking the intake cam because of it. It was an install error, as the owner of the car installed it without properly re-shimming the valves. He might've not had problems had he done proper installation, but he would've probably been better off switching to a shimless bucket setup in his case [8500 redline and 11mm lift, high duration cams])

Shimless Buckets
Newer engines come with "shimless buckets", which is just as it sounds. The benefit of this is that there are no flaws to this design when compared to the previous two. There's no chance of spitting a shim out, because there's none. The downside is that you have to buy whole buckets which are more expensive but as I said at the beginning, durability and performance are my priorities, and that comes at a cost.

Our upgrade:1ZZ engines come with shimless buckets which are compatible in our heads. The buckets in the 1zz-fe head are 31mm in diameter which I believe is the same diameter as our buckets. They cost around $220 for all 16 buckets, and come in many sizes ranging from 5.09 to 5.95mm I believe, enough to go smaller or bigger than what you currently have. They are also lighter than our shim-over bucket assembly, which is always a good thing. These buckets combined with titanium springs and retainers will net you a big savings in weight, lightening the valve train considerably. Titanium valves are also lighter, if you're up for it.

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Cams

Cams is short for Camshafts, which are the shafts go over the lifters to open the valves for intake and exhaust. Our stock cams are very, very conservative and that means low power. They open the valves for a short period of time, and the lift of the valves is very small.

Imagine yourself breathing short breaths very quickly, vs breathing normally (longer, slower breaths). That is how an upgrade of cams would be to our engine. It would enable it to breathe more air and for longer before closing the valves to prepare for the power stroke. More air means more gasoline can be injected, which means more power. For turbo applications, you have a lot of air coming in, but the valves open so low and for such a short period of time that you can only make so much power. A 5sfe with upgraded cams alone will make more power on the dyno at the same boost pressure with the same turbo, same setup, same everything, simply upgrading the cams will make that number go up. Of course, that also means a possible shift in powerband to a place higher in the rev range, but what performance 4-cyl engine makes its full power below at least 6,000RPM? Very very few if any.

A camshaft grind like the Webcams 294 grind will make the engine breathe better at all RPM ranges, and will also enable it to breathe a little better just a little bit over the stock redline. They won't make much power after that. They will also let you keep the stock shim-over buckets safely, and you won't need to replace valves to get the most out of them. Think of the 294 as the cams our engine should've come with, but for some reason Toyota preffered to not do so.

A more aggressive grind like the 763 grind will make the engine breathe better than the 294s but will shift most of the powerband higher up in the rev range, making them not optimal for use in an otherwise stock head.

An even more aggressive grind like the 101 grind will make the engine breathe the best without causing problems, keeping the stock base circle, mainly just changing the lift and duration to a higher lift and longer duration. These cams will require many upgrades to be optimal, like a different intake manifold, larger throttle body, bigger injectors, shimless buckets, stronger springs, and bigger valves. These are the cams for somebody who's commited to building the 5S-FE head, like I am. They will make your powerband go up to 7000-7500 RPMs, past the stock connecting rods' limits which will also require new rods and rod bearings, and the many other "while-I'm-in-there" modifications (pistons, or piston rings, main bearings, seals, gaskets, you name it)

You can get custom cams ordered from many camshaft-building companies, you'd just need specs. Webcamshafts are very generous and offer these specs in detailed manner for your use. They even give you the indexing (when the valves open and close), which is another necessary spec.

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Headgasket

This will be short and simple: use a 98+ 5S-FE headgasket from Camry engines. They are MLS compared to graphite gaskets. Basically nothing better for the money and they're good enough for boost.

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Headbolts

Stock headbolts can be used and are pretty strong. They keep the head tightened against the block at all times under all pressure, so they are very important.

I am not sure whether or not there is an upgrade for ours or headbolts that are compatible. Anybody willing to share this info will be appreciated.

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Porting, Polishing, Valve Jobs

You will always hear "headwork", which will usually mean porting and polishing the head. There's many articles on what is necessary and what is good or bad. Sometimes porting a head isn't good. On a flowbench it'll show better airflow numbers; sure, that will be the case because you can blow more air into it. However, CFM isn't all there is to headwork, you also have to take into account the air velocity, which on the intake moreso than the exhaust is very important. It helps keep fuel atomized enabling for a better and more efficient combustion.

Polishing isn't always a good thing to do, as it removes the porous surface of the ports. This is beneficial mainly on the exhaust side of the head, as you want as least turbulunce in your exhaust as possible. On the intake side of things it isn't always good, because removing turbulence will make the air not as able as before in keeping the fuel atomized.

Valve jobs are mainly done to create a path of less resistance into the valves for the air to flow through, kind of like giving direction to the air. This improves flow considerably if done right.

Anybody willing to chime in on any of these topics will be appreciated.

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[Syaoran]

RESERVED FOR LINKS.

[Smaay]

this is a very good write up but im going to bash on you using the term lifters. there are no lifters in a 5S, 3S, 2J, 1Z, 2Z, 1M, 3M, 2G, 7A, 4A, or any other OHC engine that i have been into. the cam rolls directly over the bucket which pushes down the valve.

Lifters are used in engines that have the camshaft in the center of the engine and uses push rods that lift "lifters" that push the valve down.

you are not the first person to call them lifters, and for all i know thats the actual term for a bucket. So im really not bashing, i guess im just giving my 2 cents.

now another thing to consider. because the 3S, 5S, 2J, 1M, 3M, 7A, and quite a few others all use the same bucket and shim that you are correct that the 1ZZ-FE shimmless buckets work. Im using them in my All-Trac and Supra. with that being said the valve spring diameter is the same between all the engines. HOWEVER.... the spring travel is not all the same. so lets just say the 2JZ spring is a little bit taller than the 5S spring. that mean its going to be slightly compressed if its installed in the 5S head. that means when the cam rolls over it it might reach total compression before the lobe completes the rotation. you know that that means? the camshaft will literally EXPLODE!

so what you would need to do is have a sample of each spring from each engine and do a compression test. that way you will know if the spring will compress enough for the cam lobe to pass over.

[Syaoran]

Yeah I don't like calling them lifters either but I guess it's a term that everybody will understand. Here in Puerto Rico they have weird names for everything and even the most experienced mechanics also call them lifters and go "wtf" when I call them "buckets".

I am sharing the info found around from other forums and reputable members. Mrturrari is currently using 2JZ-GTE valve springs in his MR2 5S-FE that is fully built (headwork, bottom end, and boosted).

http://www.mr2.com/forums/non-turbo-engine...-your-5sfe.html

Here's what he's using in his MR2. In various other posts he makes mention of 2JZ valves and springs, and it's common hearsay that for rev1 5S-FE you use 3S-GTE valves because the stem is just as long, but since the base circle of the cams is larger on the revision 2 5S-FE, you need shorter valves, and that's where 2JZ valves come in.

I think the 2JZ valve springs have more travel before binding which is good for using higher lift cams. If that is true, that also means they're indeed stronger springs.

Here's a quote from a while ago from him, after having his engine built.

http://www.mr2.com/forums/non-turbo-engine...es-springs.html

Rev1 5sfe (91-92) - use gen2 3sgte valves and springs. The valves are 1mm bigger and the springs are stronger for the higher revs.

Rev2 5sfe (93+) - use 2jz valves and springs. The valves again are 1mm bigger and the springs are stronger and oval shaped to give more clearance for higher lift.

The reason you pick them like that is because the base circle is larger on the rev2 and so the valves are about 0.100" shorter. It makes for less work and a better fit when doing the valve job.

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Sep 18, 2012 - 8:44 PM

[Syaoran]

Here's also some info on the 2JZ Valves:

http://www.lextreme.com/valve.html

Stem Length || Intake: 98.55mm || Exhaust: 99.10mm
Valve Size || Intake: 33.60mm || Exhaust: 29mm

Here's some info on the 5S-FE Valves against the 2JZ Valves:

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/10-hardc...-will-work.html

STOCK
5sfe= 32.5 intake
28 exhaust
2jz= 33.6 intake
29 exhaust

Stem length from the OP in that topic for the 5S-FE valves are as follow:

5SFE HEAD
INTAKE VALVE- [...]97.5mm stem length x 6mm stem diam
EXHAUST VALVE- [...] 98.5mm stem length x 6mm stem diam

[TRDweaponX]

Great write up. Look forward to more.