Tuned ECM's and Piggybacks Options

[Fastbird]

The wife and I are looking forward to the (for now) wanted CT27 upgrade from ATS w/the ported fuel rail and 550CC injectors. We are wanting to push the car over the 300 HP mark and call it done until something breaks.

So I'm sitting here learning about the functionality of the SMT6 in the car and realizing that I've no idea what the stock computer is set up for, so the though struck me and I thought I'd check in and see what you great minds here think.

Would it work to do the ATS Racing Tuned ECU as part of the package, zero out the SMT6, and then make changes as necessary on the dyno to correct any inadequacies as necessary?? I want to say yes, but then again piggybacks are a new evil to me.

Thoughts???

[brianforster]

god you must have an endless wallet and a really nice wife!

id say with the ats rom tune you have 0 reason for the smt6.. also if you buy their kit and are willing to drive to there shop (texas i think?) they willl tune your turbo kit to your specific car..

right now your smt6 is hindering on the ledge of "waste of money" due to piggybacks not being all that exciting for the 3sgte motor and if you buy the kit from ATS your going to push it all the way into "why did i buy this "territory"

This post has been edited by brianforster: Jul 24, 2006 - 11:03 PM

[lagos]

if 300whp is your goal, then the ct27 wont be up to the job. you need something bigger. its a nice turbo, and i know ats claims 300, but it wont do it on pump gas.

i wouldnt bother with the rom tune from ats. your just getting an overpriced generic setup and god knows what they do to it.

[brianforster]

lagos really hates ats for some reason but i really think there rom tunes are nice.. id agree not to go ct27 for 300whp, go for the td06

[lagos]

lagos really hates ats for some reason but i really think there rom tunes are nice.. id agree not to go ct27 for 300whp, go for the td06

i dont like the idea of somone reprograming your ecu and hoping it works right on your car. every car is a little differnt. he also has an smt6... you can do all kinds of tuning with that, so why bother with a preprogramed ecu when u can do the same thing, even better, with what he has.

[brianforster]

the point of there rom tunes is that it makes there turbo kits plug and play, if you search mr2oc i doubt youll find anyone whos car hasnt run right with there rom tune and would probably even let them send the rom tune back.

toyota does the same thing, every car is a little different but they are all running on the same ecu!!

its safe to say that ATS is in business for a reason and its also safe to say that there rom tunes are a good buy

[Fastbird]

I think the CT27 would be up to the task of 300 HP based on the fact that it will hold more boost and carry it longer than the CT26. With everything working in sync I honestly don't see it being a problem.

Now, the reason I don't want to tune for a larger turbo directly off of the SMT6 is because no one seems to have any idea what the spark tables in the stock ECU look like. I simply do NOT like the idea of playing with spark tables without knowing where they are starting or ending up. Sure, the functionality is there, take away or advance one degree at a time, but without a baseline starting point, you're shooting in the blind. ATS seems to know what they're talking about and definitely seem to be the people to go to for the 3S-GTE work, so why the assumption that their ECU tunes aren't worth it. I personally think that their ECU would make an outstanding starting point to fine tune (as much as possible at least) once installed. I also feel that the piggyback will do it's job as advertised, it's just a little more troublesome to tune than a standalone based on the fact that you don't have actual numbers sitting in front of you. The end result is the same, it's just how you get there and not as feature laden.

Reason we're shooting for the CT27 is that it's not going to kill our bottom end as much as the TD06 or comparable but will still carry 17-19 PSI all the way to the top. Looking at our dyno graph from the past week is the CT26 would have held the 16 PSI boost through 6300 RPM, based on the curve of the graph we most likely would have seen 275 HP at 6300 RPM instead of a peak of 249 about 600-700 RPM earlier (and if we can take care of that dip too...... ). Plus it seems to cough up the same type of powerband that the CT26 does, only with more power across the board and without the sharp spike as seen in the TD05/06 series where it ramps up really fast.

Cliff notes: I think the CT27 will do what we're looking for, I personally think ATS knows what they're doing with the tunes, I don't like tuning in the blind without having a baseline for where things are set at.

[presure2]

you'll struggle to get 300whp outta the '27, without running 20+psi on a race gas mix.
the rom tune would eliminate the need for the piggy back, as the rom tune basicly had all the tuning done for you, by changing the values in the stock ECU.
especially if you cant make very small adjustments with the SMT...
the timing thing with the SMT was what i was talking about before.
im assuming the SMT adjust fuel based of the AFM? if your pulling fuel with it, your changing your timing at the same time. with the agressivness of the JDM ecu's timing maps from the factory, this is a recipe for blown motors for lots of the mr2 guys.
i'd be VERY carefull with how much fuel you pull/add and where you do it.


aaron has a BROAD selection of maps to work with, and if there are any issues, can very easily send you a remaped chip that will compensate for changes that you require.
if your looking for more details about exactly how the rom tune works,and the features it can include (dual map option, ect) your best bet would be to email, call or IM ken blake. he's theyre customer service guy, and has always been extremely helpfull with any questions ive had about any ATS product.
his AIM name is deucecoupe93T

[lagos]

Cliff notes: I think the CT27 will do what we're looking for, I personally think ATS knows what they're doing with the tunes, I don't like tuning in the blind without having a baseline for where things are set at.

dont get me wrong. the ct27 turbo is nice. ill probably get one myself someday, but if your looking for 300+ hp on pump gas, its just not going to be able to do it. its pretty much a nice 30hp gain over the ct26, but you still cant run unlimited boost on it.

as far as the rom tunes go, i dont have anything against ats, i just never liked the idea of something preprogramed, and the settings being kept a mystery. god only knows who is changing what. ive read some things said by chrisk and a few other guys about how they tune the rom tunes to lean and unsafe. is this is true, who knows? i just wish i would know more about what changes they made and what type of a/f ratio they are tuned to before i ever thought about buying one.... but thats just me. other people like manny or brian like their roms so keep that in mind too.


if anything, i would say that you should wait a bit longer before you buy or sell anything at this point. there is a lot to learn about the 3sgte (and smt6) and how it works, and really dont want to jump into everything all at once.

[presure2]

i just wish i would know more about what changes they made and what type of a/f ratio they are tuned to before i ever thought about buying one.... but thats just me.

art...all that and more is easily available with a call to ken, or aaron.
aarons never kept it a secret what he does with them.

[lagos]

i just wish i would know more about what changes they made and what type of a/f ratio they are tuned to before i ever thought about buying one.... but thats just me.

art...all that and more is easily available with a call to ken, or aaron.
aarons never kept it a secret what he does with them.

ive asked them questions online about it and they alwasy kind of beat around the bush about it, with me at least. so thats where my point of view comes from. i guess the best thing to do would be to call them.

[presure2]

yea, ive never been able to get good answers on the board or whatever, but simply hitting up ken or aaron, or better yet calling has always gotten me any answers i needed, and then some.

[CilverSeliST205]

i just wish i would know more about what changes they made and what type of a/f ratio they are tuned to before i ever thought about buying one.... but thats just me.

art...all that and more is easily available with a call to ken, or aaron.
aarons never kept it a secret what he does with them.

Anyways, how can you trust a tune that was done without your car present during the time of tunning ? sounds like guesstimating appropriate values based on "list of mods" ?!? all the little factors are not apparent to the tuner that doesnt have the car strapped to a dyno or dataloggin his runs.

To Fastbird, my advice for you is to drop the rom tune idea, sell smt6 and get a standalone with money otherwise spent on rom and that piggyback.

[playr158]

KO racing 46T kit will put you at 300 very nicely....much better option then the ct27 for that power goal

[presure2]

To Fastbird, my advice for you is to drop the rom tune idea, sell smt6 and get a standalone with money otherwise spent on rom and that piggyback

if 300+whp is your ultimate goal, i would agree with this 100%
if your looking for stock or close to stock spool, and ~300whp take a good look @ jgreenings setup, hes @ ~260-70whp @ 16psi on the stock ECU IIRC.
the GT-28RS is a spool monster on the 3s, and i think it could hit 300whp pretty easily with a full standalone tune, and a couple more lbs of boost or less.

[brianforster]

To Fastbird, my advice for you is to drop the rom tune idea, sell smt6 and get a standalone with money otherwise spent on rom and that piggyback

if 300+whp is your ultimate goal, i would agree with this 100%
if your looking for stock or close to stock spool, and ~300whp take a good look @ jgreenings setup, hes @ ~260-70whp @ 16psi on the stock ECU IIRC.
the GT-28RS is a spool monster on the 3s, and i think it could hit 300whp pretty easily with a full standalone tune, and a couple more lbs of boost or less.

i agree, the gt28rs ballbearing is a spool monster, my friend has one on his 1.8t (it might even be the gt28r) and its really nice, he should be pushing 300 wheel if he would ever turn the boost up :lol:

stand alone and gt28rs=300 wheel.

[Kadett]

Spewie (also member of this forum) has a GT28RS and a AEM in his GT4. Has about 330bhp I believe. Maybe more now (last time I got numbers from him was almost a year ago)