the 3sgte head difference, 2nd. vs. 3rd. Options

[frosty]

Alrighty,

I'm looking to perform the 5s-gte motor build-up and I'm trying to decide which gen. gte head to go with. I know the 2nd gen had the tvis system and the 3rd didn't. I also read on some guys page months ago (and now I can't find it) that the 3rd was a better casting. To me that didn't matter if the head is getting ported and polished, but I believe he said the 3rd already had larger ports. (he had both heads side-by-side for visual aid) Mainly I noticed the difference in the 2nd and 3rd is that the 3rd came with a slightly better turbo and different compression ratios (probably a more aggressively tuned ecu?). I asume that this is really the main contributing factor to the 50ish hp increase.

I just want to know if there is any real advantage of one head over the other.

I see that alot of member on here swap using the 2nd gen motor and have great success with it. Esspecialy with the ct26 turbo. I pretty much want about 250 to 300 whp as a daily driver and see that it's done with the full 2nd gen. 3sgte.

If there is no real huge advantage of one head over the other then I would go with the 2ng gen. due to it's easier to find, parts are also easier to find, and the fact that it's cheaper than the 3rd.

[x_itchy_b_x]

gen3 ct20b: gen2 ct26
gen3 540cc injectors: gen2 440cc injectors
gen3 4 intake runners: gen2 8 intake runners with TVIS
gen3 Large lift more aggressive cams
gen3 Shim under bucket valve shims: gen2 Shim over bucket
gen3 different exhaust manifold stud placement
gen3 TB 60mm: gen2 TB 55mm

[phattyduck]

I pretty much want about 250 to 300 whp as a daily driver and see that it's done with the full 2nd gen. 3sgte.

Ummm... 250-300whp is *easy* with a stock 2nd or 3rd gen motor. No need for a hybrid motor and all the headaches that come with it.

Heck, after a boost controller, water injection, 3" exhaust and intake, I should be in the 260-280whp range without any problems (with near stock reliability). Without the boost controller (just intake and 2.5" mandrel-bent exhaust) my car already has around 240whp. (see my sig, 3rd gen FWD motor swap)

-Charlie

[jgreening]

The gen III flows more air - no question about it.

[alltracman78]

Actually the Gen II head flows more air on a flowbench.
It has MUCH larger ports than a Gen III.

The whole engine package stock however, probably Gen III.

With that said, the Gen III has a better INTAKE cam. The exhaust cam is the same specs.
I don't know which intake man flows better. Probably with the TVIS removed the gen II would, maybe even with the TVIS. It does have more overall volume in the runners I believe.

[lagos]

why do you want a 5s-gte? you can get 250-300hp with just a normal 3sgte.

[Punisher]

2nd gen USDM engine and ecu
stock fuel system
3" turbo back
2 1/2" IC piping to massive FMIC
Apexi AVC-R Electronic BC
a stevetech throttle body inlet 2 1/2" then port matched to TB
Tial 38mm external WG
GT2871r turbo w/ T25 exhaust housing and GT28 compressor housing
Forge Motorsports recirculating BOV

Everything else is basically stock.. I have the TVIS actuator hooked up to manifold so as soon as I get into positive pressure the plates open..

Anyway I put down on the dyno 287whp .. slightly over 290ft/lb's on 14PSI.. if I had more fuel I would've hit 300.. oh well.. I daily drive the **** out of it.. I been hammering it through this snow storm..

Anywho.. hope that gives you some idea's.

[frosty]

Yeah, I figured I would get some answers that didn't pertain to my question. (that happens alot on this forums, any forum actually.) I guess when I said I wanted 250-300ish whp I should have said "for now". I really want 400 but that will require me dealing with traction issues right off the get-go since it would be my daily driver. Yes, I know I can get this whp level with a standard 3s-gte but why when if I had a 3s-gte I would increase it's displacement from 2.0 to 2.2 or more? I cut out that step. Also asking "why do it" in regards to making it seem like a wasteful idea is the same as asking those that turbo their 5s-fe the same question. Why do it if the 3s-gte can already do it? Because it's different. It makes it more exciting for me as I asume it's more exciting for those with 5s-fte's to have that instead of a 3s-gte. Am I not right?

I know what I'm getting into. I've been researching this set-up for awhile now. I don't want to start up an argument over "why do the 5s-gte". It's just about the same argument as with 5s-fte. I should've just posted a one-line "which gen head flows better".

gen3 540cc injectors: gen2 440cc injectors

gen3 Large lift more aggressive cams
gen3 Shim under bucket valve shims: gen2 Shim over bucket
gen3 different exhaust manifold stud placement
gen3 TB 60mm: gen2 TB 55mm

Injectors are not a problem since I would buy new ones right off the bat.
Cams wouldn't be changed at first, but would be down the road so no problem there.

I pretty much want about 250 to 300 whp as a daily driver and see that it's done with the full 2nd gen. 3sgte.

Ummm... 250-300whp is *easy* with a stock 2nd or 3rd gen motor. No need for a hybrid motor and all the headaches that come with it.

Heck, after a boost controller, water injection, 3" exhaust and intake, I should be in the 260-280whp range without any problems (with near stock reliability). Without the boost controller (just intake and 2.5" mandrel-bent exhaust) my car already has around 240whp. (see my sig, 3rd gen FWD motor swap)

-Charlie

Yeah, but how much more did you pay for the 3rd gen? If I can buy a 2nd gen for almost $1000 less, use it's head/ecu and achieve the same hp as you have, wouldn't mine be a better deal?

The gen III flows more air - no question about it.

That's not what I read.

Actually the Gen II head flows more air on a flowbench.
It has MUCH larger ports than a Gen III.

The whole engine package stock however, probably Gen III.

With that said, the Gen III has a better INTAKE cam. The exhaust cam is the same specs.
I don't know which intake man flows better. Probably with the TVIS removed the gen II would, maybe even with the TVIS. It does have more overall volume in the runners I believe.

This answer is actually what I've found when looking for head differences.

I have read that having the tvis is good for a little more than 300 hp, but beyond that (400 hp or more) it's better to do away with it because at that piont it begins to hinder the airflow.

why do you want a 5s-gte? you can get 250-300hp with just a normal 3sgte.

already answered above

2nd gen USDM engine and ecu
stock fuel system
3" turbo back
2 1/2" IC piping to massive FMIC
Apexi AVC-R Electronic BC
a stevetech throttle body inlet 2 1/2" then port matched to TB
Tial 38mm external WG
GT2871r turbo w/ T25 exhaust housing and GT28 compressor housing
Forge Motorsports recirculating BOV

Everything else is basically stock.. I have the TVIS actuator hooked up to manifold so as soon as I get into positive pressure the plates open..

Anyway I put down on the dyno 287whp .. slightly over 290ft/lb's on 14PSI.. if I had more fuel I would've hit 300.. oh well.. I daily drive the **** out of it.. I been hammering it through this snow storm..

Anywho.. hope that gives you some idea's.

Appreciate it.

*my edit

Besides, I'm still in the research phase. I don't want to spend a dime until I know the full path I'm gonna go. Who knows, before this is over I might just go with a 3s-gte swap instead. I just like the thought of a 5s-gte better right now.

This post has been edited by frosty: Feb 16, 2007 - 11:54 AM

[phattyduck]

I pretty much want about 250 to 300 whp as a daily driver and see that it's done with the full 2nd gen. 3sgte.

Ummm... 250-300whp is *easy* with a stock 2nd or 3rd gen motor. No need for a hybrid motor and all the headaches that come with it.

Heck, after a boost controller, water injection, 3" exhaust and intake, I should be in the 260-280whp range without any problems (with near stock reliability). Without the boost controller (just intake and 2.5" mandrel-bent exhaust) my car already has around 240whp. (see my sig, 3rd gen FWD motor swap)

-Charlie

Yeah, but how much more did you pay for the 3rd gen? If I can buy a 2nd gen for almost $1000 less, use it's head/ecu and achieve the same hp as you have, wouldn't mine be a better deal?

If you read my post, you would see that I said "2nd or 3rd gen". For my goals (really, just a reliable 250-300whp), the 3rd gen motor was/is perfect. A 2nd gen motor can be brought to the same power level with similar reliability with the right modifications.

All that said, my opinion is this:
Do the 3s-gte swap. Get it up and running and get your 250-300whp. Enjoy it for a while and see if you like it. If you need more power, you can then build a 5s-gte. In the end, it should be about the same amount of money (the only extra cost is the 3s-gte block), and you can stop at any time if you are happy with the power level, or maybe unhappy with the traction.

-Charlie

[JesterDC]

If you read my post, you would see that I said "2nd or 3rd gen". For my goals (really, just a reliable 250-300whp), the 3rd gen motor was/is perfect. A 2nd gen motor can be brought to the same power level with similar reliability with the right modifications.

All that said, my opinion is this:
Do the 3s-gte swap. Get it up and running and get your 250-300whp. Enjoy it for a while and see if you like it. If you need more power, you can then build a 5s-gte. In the end, it should be about the same amount of money (the only extra cost is the 3s-gte block), and you can stop at any time if you are happy with the power level, or maybe unhappy with the traction.

-Charlie

He can do what ever he wants to, and if he wants to tinker around with a 5SGTE hybrid good for him. Also, it's common knowledge that the 5SGTE is a much stronger engine than the 3SGTE and has much more potential for massive power. I saw a MR2 in Sport Compact Car a couple months ago that had a 5SGTE with a 2-stage fuel system pushing over 750whp, the Top Secret 3SGTE supra is barely pushing 700whp and there was much more development put into that car.

And to the 5SGTE guy, almost all flow benches will report better flow for bigger ports, but if the ports are to big for the engine to fill with air then you'll have turbulence->loss of torque->loss of hp, just fyi

[alltracman78]

it's common knowledge that the 5SGTE is a much stronger engine than the 3SGTE

No.

and has much more potential for massive power

No.

.2L of displacement will only net you so much in a really high HP small engine...
And an oversquare or square [3SGTE] engine will ALWAYS rev safer than a undersquare engine [5SFE]. Which is where the hp comes from in a small engine. High rpms. Higher rpms vs .2L usually means the higher rpms will make more power. The 5S block can be destroked, and a better rod:stroke can be done too though.
And for the record, 700 WHP is NOT the upper limit for the 3S block.
There's a guy in FL that has over 900 BHP [crank] with one. Stroked to 2.1L I believe though.

Not to knock the 5S block however. Or the 5SGTE. I was going to slap one in my car, but it won't work with the transfer case, so I abandoned it for now.
Alot of power can be made with it, and the block should be just as strong as the 3S one. Same basic design.
It all depends on what you are going to do with the engine.

Do you have any clue how much money it takes to get 700 hp out of EITHER engine?
I'm willing to be it's ALOT more than what he has.
So staying relative to his goals would be helpful.

If we're not touching the inside of the engine or the intake man, you probably have close to the same potential with either ASSUMING IDENTICAL MODS. Though the 5S might have a slight edge at this point due to displacement/C:R. With a non CT turbo I don't know. The edge might go to the 3S with a higher flowing, higher efficiency turbo. :shrug:
The main problem at this point is heat. The 5S has no oil squirters. The 3S does. I'm assuming a metal HG on the 5S BTW.

Once you start tearing apart the engines and modding the insides, it's kind of up for grabs. IF you can find relatively cheap internals for the 5S you're off to a good start. Anything but stock spec pistons aren't as available as what there is for the 3SGE/GTE. In addition, if you want to improve the rod:stroke, you will have to get custom rods AND pistons [pin location will have to be moved].
Also, you probably want the oil squirters from the 3S stuck on your 5S. More $$.
And whatever it costs you to source all the GTE head stuff that the 3S already comes with. You can stick with the FE head, but all the high hp 5S that I've seen have the GE head. Wouldn't hurt to see how far you can take the head I guess. It would definitely be interesting.

if the ports are to big for the engine to fill with air then you'll have turbulence->loss of torque->loss of hp, just fyi

You actually have it backwards.
Larger ports slow down the airflow, which LESSENS turbulence in the combustion chamber. Which lessens torque. You want MORE turbulence inside the chamber to mix the air/fuel better.
Smaller ports speed up the flow into the chamber, increasing turbulence and torque. Design effects this as well. Perfect example is the FE vs GE heads. FE have a higher angle on the valve, changing how the air flows into the head. It works better than the GE heads at lower RPMs, creating more torque at low engine speeds. However, it cannot flow enough at higher engine speeds, hence the power dropoff. FI helps [to some extent] to bypass this by forcing extra air in.

At high rpms those larger ports will flow more air, creating more torque at higher engine speeds.
Up to a point of course. You don't want tennis ball sized ports in a 2.0L head. Even if you are trying to boost 40 PSI.

[JesterDC]

Go learn: http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=864
This has already been discussed by much smarter people than you and I.
Also Turbulence in the Runners will screw power, in the combustion chamber you are correct, but in runners you want straight fast air, so I DON'T have it backwards, YOU just quote out of context.

This post has been edited by JesterDC: Feb 18, 2007 - 1:12 PM

[alltracman78]

This has already been discussed by much smarter people than you and I.

Maybe smarter than you bud, not necessarily me.
I reread the thread [already read it once].
Twice the 5S block was mentioned to be stronger. No proof, no references. One also claimed the 5S was aluminum......
Nothing else I posted was refuted [other than the 2 strength posts]. In fact, pretty much everything I mentioned was also mentioned there.
See my first sentence.....

I also saw a whole lot of questions, a few answers, and what has to be used to make it work.

So I'm not totally sure what your point was?

Also Turbulence in the Runners will screw power, in the combustion chamber you are correct, but in runners you want straight fast air, so I DON'T have it backwards, YOU just quote out of context.

You need to go back and read what you posted...

And to the 5SGTE guy, almost all flow benches will report better flow for bigger ports, but if the ports are to big for the engine to fill with air then you'll have turbulence->loss of torque->loss of hp, just fyi

Let's see
1-This thread is about HEADS [read the title in case you already didn't].
2-"Ports" are referenced to HEAD ports. If you're talking about intake manifolds, RUNNERS are referenced.
3-NORMALLY a flow measurement is referenced to a head. You mentioned nothing about manifolds.
4-The 2nd/3rd gen3sgte HEAD ports are what was specifically mentioned. While I did mention a intake manifold comparison, I don't know [and I clearly stated this] which flows more, or which has larger runners.

[phattyduck]

Two things about the 5s block make it better:

1. Taller deck height. You can have larger displacement while keeping better rod ratios.
2. Slightly stronger block. The cooling passages between the cylinders is stronger reducing the likelyhood of cracking cylinders at high-horsepower levels (600hp+). This is still true even after the block is sleeved...

From what I have seen and read, a de-stroked 5s-gte at around 2.1L will give a nice high redline (9k-ish for the bottom end). With supporting mods all around, you can have one monster motor.

The 5s-block still has problems for building a motor. Many little things are different - no oil port on the block for the turbo, different water passages internally (sometimes), timing belt length issues, and other casting differences that can cause problems.

I personally don't think it would be worth the hassle of the 5s-gte unless you final goal is over 500 crank hp.

-Charlie

PS. Generally, it is accepted that the 2nd gen head is better for high-horsepower use in the US, mainly because of the better shop/vendor support.

[alltracman78]

Two things about the 5s block make it better:

1. Taller deck height. You can have larger displacement while keeping better rod ratios.
2. Slightly stronger block. The cooling passages between the cylinders is stronger reducing the likelyhood of cracking cylinders at high-horsepower levels (600hp+). This is still true even after the block is sleeved...

I think that depends on the 3S block you use, but whatever.
I hadn't realized the deck height was taller.
For the record, my point was that the 5S is not this immensely better block to use. Not that it was no good, or not as good as the 3S block. No worries though.
Good info. Thanks.

From what I have seen and read, a de-stroked 5s-gte at around 2.1L will give a nice high redline (9k-ish for the bottom end). With supporting mods all around, you can have one monster motor.

I agree 100%
You can definitely make a beast out of it.

[JesterDC]

Two things about the 5s block make it better:

1. Taller deck height. You can have larger displacement while keeping better rod ratios.
2. Slightly stronger block. The cooling passages between the cylinders is stronger reducing the likelyhood of cracking cylinders at high-horsepower levels (600hp+). This is still true even after the block is sleeved...

From what I have seen and read, a de-stroked 5s-gte at around 2.1L will give a nice high redline (9k-ish for the bottom end). With supporting mods all around, you can have one monster motor.

The 5s-block still has problems for building a motor. Many little things are different - no oil port on the block for the turbo, different water passages internally (sometimes), timing belt length issues, and other casting differences that can cause problems.

I personally don't think it would be worth the hassle of the 5s-gte unless you final goal is over 500 crank hp.

-Charlie

PS. Generally, it is accepted that the 2nd gen head is better for high-horsepower use in the US, mainly because of the better shop/vendor support.

Thank you

[alltracman78]

[ice23q]

Thats got to be one of the best set of posts i have read for ages. Great scrap guys.

1. If your gonna do a 5sgte who cares about what gen or port size??? Get it ported out to the specs your engine builder wants. Along with everything else he needs like valves and spring combos.

2. The water galleries on the head and block have to match up. (Easy) get the engine builder to sort that when you have it ported.

3. The only things that you will have left from your 5sfe will be the crank, flywheel and block. Maybe some water line fittings.

4. To do this right, do it right the first time ok...You will need LOADS of cash. Get new parts when you get them....eg water pump, oil pump etc.

Good luck with your choice of direction. Either way you go you'll have a quick car... I would suggest that you get a standalone before you do anything. Altronic SM4 would be nice. Bang that on what you have now and see what you get out of your engine. You can do a swop after that.

Be good..........Rik

This post has been edited by ice23q: Feb 20, 2007 - 4:32 PM

[frosty]

Man this is crazy, all I wanted to know was a head difference and it went from the 5s-3s block to the intake manifold and all the internals.

Strange how most questions I post on here get way off track, but at least it was still a good read

I do appreciate it.