From fwd to awd, is it possible? Options

[goferris]

I have read somewhere that it isn't possible to change a american celica into an awd gtfour type of set up. Is that True? I am new to the forum and not sure if this has allready been touched on earlier but that is one of my dreams to have. living in the states i doubt i will ever have the chance to ever own a real one. Does anyone know for sure?
thanks for the info

[easternpiro1]

yes its possible, but VERY VERY VEEEEEERY expensive. there is someone on here that has done it in the united states...i forgot his name do a search and look up awd conversion or all wheel drive conversion

from the last thread i read about it relating to him, his car pulls to the left when he's on the highway so be careful

there is also currently another thread on converting it to awd, the guy is getting ready to do it, or he's in the process now, just search

cheers rookie! enjoy the site!

[j0e_p3t]

buy celiman05's car.

[Jaws4God]

I wonder what makes it so expensive to do...

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I wonder what makes it so expensive to do...

I'm not too sure. Seems like all you would need is a st205 front and rear clip. Then just bolt stuff in. There would be some custom fabbing. Might be able to use an st185. That would be all the more work though. I might just look at that, I know a guy with a st185. I'll jack both cars and see how different they are. If it's close, I'll start messuring things. I'll get back to this thread in few days.

[easternpiro1]

i want to be like bigmeanbulldog when i grow up....thats a nice gesture man...

[lagos]

I wonder what makes it so expensive to do...

custom cutting and fabrication of the rear end.
sourcing rear diff, suspension, wheel hubs, brakes...etc..
buying a race fuel cell to replace the gas tank
etc...
etc..
etc..


it all adds up and its far from a bolt on type of thing

I wonder what makes it so expensive to do...

I'm not too sure. Seems like all you would need is a st205 front and rear clip. Then just bolt stuff in. There would be some custom fabbing. Might be able to use an st185. That would be all the more work though. I might just look at that, I know a guy with a st185. I'll jack both cars and see how different they are. If it's close, I'll start messuring things. I'll get back to this thread in few days.

none of it bolts up. thats the problem . its all totally different in the rear end.

[94GT]

There's a guy in Cyprus (I think) on this board who did it the right way. The mega difference is that the fuel tank on our American car is right where the rear diff needs to go. And there's nothing to bolt it onto even if you remove the tank and put a fuel cell in the trunk instead. What he did was had the rear lower pan cut off and welded one from a GT 4 in so that he could use a GT-4 fuel tank and everything would bolt up correctly. If you don't do it this way you've got to do some custom fabricating back there to be able to bolt it up and then scrap your fuel tank and put a cell in the trunk. For all that work you'd probably be better off buying a street legal all-trac...

[goferris]

So if i did do this mod would it not be street legal? if so that would suck.

[lagos]

So if i did do this mod would it not be street legal? if so that would suck.

very illegal, and potentially very dangerous.

[goferris]

very illegal, and potentially very dangerous.

how is it dangerous? because of having to mod the rear? GRR i guess that means no awd celica for me

[lagos]

because you have to totally cut up the rear end of your car and weld/fabricate everything back on so that its perfectly straight and strong enough to last the life of the car. chances are the person who is going to do this for you will not be a mechanical engineer with incredible welding skills.
if anything is done incorrectly, it could mean your life.


then again, there are people out there who do this kind of stuff for a living, and could probably make a fairly safe setup. but that would cost you more then its worth. if you want an awd celica, you can buy a 4th or 5th gen for less the 5grand.

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 15, 2007 - 7:00 PM

[alltracman78]

The mega difference is that the fuel tank on our American car is right where the rear diff needs to go.

I believe your gas tank is actually where the propeller shaft needs to go....
Which is under the rear seats.

Your trunk bottom is in the way of the diff. This is why STxx5 have a shallower trunk than the FWD Celicas they share generations with.
In the STxx5 the tank is after the rear diff, right in front of the rear bumper.

[hatchy_gt-s]

it is a complex and yet a simple transfer aslong as you have the hole drivetrain, suspension, tran., and then you have to move lines and of course the tank and the cost on this is far from worth it trust me ive done my homework and mymeasurements and found its not worth the money or the time

[lagos]

the funny part is, that these threads pop up all the time. everyone says how they want/plan to do it, or how they would give their first born for a gt4. yet celiman's conversion has been for sale for months now and no one wants to buy it.

[alltracman78]

Talk is cheap......

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

it is a complex and yet a simple transfer aslong as you have the hole drivetrain, suspension, tran., and then you have to move lines and of course the tank and the cost on this is far from worth it trust me ive done my homework and mymeasurements and found its not worth the money or the time

So, if you could get a rear clip, you could just transfer it all over? Seems like there would be an over abundance of st205 rear clips due to everyone wanting the front half. I've heard the floor of the truck is higher because the st205 and Beams Celica's have the full size spare. So, were do the myths stop and the truth start?

[celicast3sgte]

lagos. SHUT UP! say something other than "no" for once!

it can be done, you dont need to me a frickin engineer. and you for DAMN sure don't need to listen to lagos. green mach toy is doing it and writing a buildup, and celiman05 has done the swap and is now selling it.

bottom line, metal is metal, anything can be done.

[lagos]

lagos. SHUT UP! say something other than "no" for once!

it can be done, you dont need to me a frickin engineer. and you for DAMN sure don't need to listen to lagos. green mach toy is doing it and writing a buildup, and celiman05 has done the swap and is now selling it.

bottom line, metal is metal, anything can be done.

ok. ill be a dumb cheerleader. DO IT DO IT DO IT

celiman05's DAD did it . he happens to be a fabricator by trade. only a few months after the project is compete the car goes for sale. kind of makes you wonder why somone would take on a project like that and then not want it unless there was something wrong or the fear of something going wrong.

btw, what hands on experience do you have on this matter? i had the awd diff and drive shaft. jacked up my car, dragged the diff and shaft under it and saw what needed to be done. how about you?

EDIT: one more thing. if anyone has the skills to take on a project like this, they would know what is/isn't possible or safe without having to ask people on a forum that has nothing to do with fabrication. they sure as hell wouldn't pay attention to my opinions on the matter.

This post has been edited by lagos: Feb 16, 2007 - 12:02 AM

[celicast3sgte]

no need to be an ass about it.. i just requested you stop saying no to everyone because YOU didnt justify the cause.

EDIT: WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHO IS CAPABLE AND WHO ISNT?!

This post has been edited by celicast3sgte: Feb 16, 2007 - 12:08 AM

[lagos]

no need to be an ass about it.. i just requested you stop saying no to everyone because YOU didnt justify the cause.

EDIT: WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHO IS CAPABLE AND WHO ISNT?!

im not being an ass about it. your the one that made an insulting post.
im not judging anyone. im simply replying to goferris thread where he asked us for more info and giving him my opinions from what i learned when i looked into doing this to my car.

[94GT]

Lagos, I know you get cracked on a lot for being a naysayer, but I personally value your opinion on this subject and swap stuff in general. Everyone knows that it can be done, but the bottomless money pit that a project like that can turn into and the safety factor is definitely worth mentioning. You've got a right to say what you're saying, and I think most appreciate your advice, including me.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

There is a difference between typing good advice and just being negative and kind of rude. There isn't any need to be a cheerleader everything someone says something either. Most of the projects people talk about won't happen, that's just how it is. Lagos, I'm just saying that you might think about what you’re doing and watch yourself because you walk the line every now and then. But hell, we all have personalities, there is no shame in showing the world that.

[Batman722]

ok relax everyone...

OPTION 1
if you get a rear clip it would be easier than a 100% fab job. What you would have to do is have a shop cut the along FACTORY WELDS of the clip (start from the back of the front seats (the floor)), then along the side members, then up around the strut towers and over the hatch. Then they would have to do the same to your car (hehe cut that beotch right into pieces) and weld the 205 subframe onto your USDM car. All of the new welds have to be perfect and strait and everything has to be precise. If one side weld is off by a 1/2 inch, then your hatch won't close properly and look not so good, plus your car might drive a bit crocked or just shake violenly at high speeds Then you would have to make sure you have ALL of the needed parts from the 205, like the fuel lines, brake lines, gas tank, sway bar, links, suspension assemblies, brakes, drive shaft, rear diff, make sure you use all new bushings (which you would have to order from Japan and wait a few weeks for) ect.. and still be able to custom fab some stuff. And you would only really want to do this if you had a 3s swap or planning to swap in a 3s of course, or just bolt up an AWD tranny to your 5s and have a very slow AWD car.

all of the exterior welds would be grinded down and then the cost of the repaint (front half of the car is one color and the rear is another)...

also if you do the 205 rear you would probably need new wheels because the 205 calipers are huge. Better stock up on brake pads and rotors too.


OPTION 2
or you can just go 100% custom and do it all yourself. Celiman05 and his dad had many parts from 205 and still did MAJOR fabrication to his car to get everything bolted right up.

have any of you seen celiman05's car in person ? did any of you see the process ? oh yeah, I did. So if you have the extra $$, many many free months, and a trusted shop/person to do all of this for you, is it worth it ? You better make sure the shop/person doing this doesn't mess up one little thing or else your driving something dangerous to you and everyone around you.

[alltracman78]

or just bolt up an AWD tranny to your 5s and have a very slow AWD car.

For the record, the 5S block and transfer case don't work together unless you do some major grinding of the block.

have any of you seen celiman05's car in person ?

OOh OOh me me me me

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I talked to the guy with the GT-4 and he says the rear ends are completely different. His brother has a 6gc that they bought a little beat up and fixed up, so he seems to know both cars pretty well. I know he's been inside and out of that GT-4 of his. Fact still remains though, if you're that much of a 6gc fan, you'll find a way. Lot easier to just buy a 5gc GT-4, which is what I'm thinking about.

[Negative]

Me too. But there is so much about them that isn't a 6th Gen. The looks are close but eh... The motor is close but eh... The interior is nice but eh...
the list goes on and on. IDK it's probably what I will do evenyually anyway.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Me too. But there is so much about them that isn't a 6th Gen. The looks are close but eh... The motor is close but eh... The interior is nice but eh...
the list goes on and on. IDK it's probably what I will do evenyually anyway.

The only reason I want one if for a race car, so I don't really care of looks or interior. I'm starting to figure out that FWD is really good in a low power car, or high powered drag car, but it's so great coming out of a turn in with high power. Might be different with a LSD. We need to get a thread started on making a LSD for the 5sfe trans.

[InfamousChappy]

I hate to jump in like this and I'm not tryin to hijack a thread or anything, but I just have to insert my two cents.

With the high cost and potential danger to try and convert a USDM GT or ST to a JDM GT4 (because that's what it's gonna be, most of the drivetrain will be JDM) why even bother?
Sell your swapped 3sgte and import a GT4 I mean hell you're already importing half the car as it is. Then if you really must do a converison convert it to RHD. You don't even need to do a conversion just learn how to drive like a mailman or even be a mailman.

I'm saying this on the assumption that it's legal to import GT4s.

[jason]

I hate to jump in like this and I'm not tryin to hijack a thread or anything, but I just have to insert my two cents.

With the high cost and potential danger to try and convert a USDM GT or ST to a JDM GT4 (because that's what it's gonna be, most of the drivetrain will be JDM) why even bother?
Sell your swapped 3sgte and import a GT4 I mean hell you're already importing half the car as it is. Then if you really must do a converison convert it to RHD. You don't even need to do a conversion just learn how to drive like a mailman or even be a mailman.

I'm saying this on the assumption that it's legal to import GT4s.

haha put on ur flame suit... i dont think its legal or very cost efficient to import gt-4's i think a thread covered that, but itd still be neat.

cheap awd speed - get a dsm n become best friends with a mechanic, or buy a whole bunch of tools cuz you'll need em, then drive around like all the other losers with a modded dsm (me being one of them) ya can pass everything on the road cept the tow trucks

[malpaso]

...just see this page what should be done with 7th gen celica and some 6gen GT-four parts for inspiration
http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcarsfile...rtNewCelica.htm





result: 7th gen CELICA, 4 WHEEL DRIVE, 3SGTE ENGINE...

[pokemeintheeye]

or just bolt up an AWD tranny to your 5s and have a very slow AWD car.

For the record, the 5S block and transfer case don't work together unless you do some major grinding of the block.

I believe that problem can be solved by using one off of a RAV4.

[playr158]

no need to be an ass about it.. i just requested you stop saying no to everyone because YOU didnt justify the cause.

EDIT: WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE WHO IS CAPABLE AND WHO ISNT?!

OMG i must meet you someday....

you have made this post soooo much better and proved a blatant point about certain people and issues here!



this is a very possible swap....its been done multiple times....

it requires RESEARCH, KNOWLEDGE, PRECISION and EXPERIENCE

or

a SH1T load of money to pay someone to do it

[3WayStunna]

hmmm, with the fact being that there are a few 6th gens running around with this swap done, im surprised that ppl, still bring up the money vs skill issue....i just think that if there is a wil there is a way, and that the hardest part thus far is sourceing the parts to do it, and the ignorance of not knowing what formula of mix and match( of celica/toyota tranny's, diffs, suspension etc.) we need to make it work....plain and simple, ppl have done it, hardest part was sourcing the parts.....hey goferris, find a reliable supplier of the parts, learn to weld or find agood welder and tell s how it goes 6 months down the road, and good luck bro ^_^

[CilverSeliST205]

Wonder how much would it cost to put 6gc body on 5gc full frame (5gc interior engine suspension drivetrain etc)

more cost efficient/safe... or brainfart idea ?

[j0e_p3t]

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=45677

[playr158]

Wonder how much would it cost to put 6gc body on 5gc full frame (5gc interior engine suspension drivetrain etc)

more cost efficient/safe... or brainfart idea ?

considering the celica is a UNIBODY design.....
brainfart idea for you +1

[CelicaGT04]

Oohh.. well i believe this topic took a turn for the worst...
I plead the 5th..

But to the topic at hand, go for the AWD conversion..
I just hope your pockets are DEEEEEEEEP... i mean like
OCEAN deep...

Either that or you have a good paying job and you live with your mom....

This post has been edited by CelicaGT04: Feb 26, 2007 - 10:41 AM

[goferris]

yeah no joke. i have decided that i am just too poor to ever be able to afford this mod.it would definitely be cool.
someone was saying that it isn't possible to ship the gtfour over here. why not? they ship r34 skylines over all the time. (well i guess not all the time but you get the point.) what difference would it be to ship a gt four? i suppose this might need to be in a different thread. not that i will ever be able to afford it but just curious. thanks far all the input that you have all provided

This post has been edited by goferris: Feb 26, 2007 - 8:55 PM

[94GT]

yeah no joke. i have decided that i am just too poor to ever be able to afford this mod.it would definitely be cool.
someone was saying that it isn't possible to ship the gtfour over here. why not? they ship r34 skylines over all the time. (well i guess not all the time but you get the point.) what difference would it be to ship a gt four? i suppose this might need to be in a different thread. not that i will ever be able to afford it but just curious. thanks far all the input that you have all provided

have you ever priced an r34? A lot of that cost is getting it street legal over here.

[Charlie97L]

yeah no joke. i have decided that i am just too poor to ever be able to afford this mod.it would definitely be cool.
someone was saying that it isn't possible to ship the gtfour over here. why not? they ship r34 skylines over all the time. (well i guess not all the time but you get the point.) what difference would it be to ship a gt four? i suppose this might need to be in a different thread. not that i will ever be able to afford it but just curious. thanks far all the input that you have all provided

it's not possible because the gt4 hasn't been through the crash testing procedures like the skyline has. motorex spent a heckuva lot of money enabling the skyline to be imported, and those that are, have to have a lot of work done to make them legal.

i'm with lagos. it's not being negative... most AWD conversions to cars that are not naturally AWD are done for rally racing, and they're constantly reinforcing/rebuilding the car. it's just not a feasible thing for a street car. even a "track car" for mot people here, wouldn't work, because most people drive their track cars a fair bit on the street. a true track car, that you NEVER drove on the street, and made any repairs, reinforcements or adjustments to EVERY time before you trailered it to the track, sure, that would be feasible.

you're basically making swiss cheese out of a pretty un-reinforced chassis to begin with. the gt4 6gen chass is totally different.

This post has been edited by Charlie97L: Feb 28, 2007 - 4:35 PM

[alltracman78]

or just bolt up an AWD tranny to your 5s and have a very slow AWD car.

For the record, the 5S block and transfer case don't work together unless you do some major grinding of the block.

I believe that problem can be solved by using one off of a RAV4.

IIRC the Rav4 transfer case won't bolt to the E150/51 trans.

[eggman40]

Man this topic got heated Real fast!



but reading through it i didnt see any part where lagos said it could not be done, just that its VERY difficult. Dont know what all the shouting is about.



But as for the awd deal... looks like it comes down to money or skill. If you have the skill, give it a try. Or if you have the $, hire a bad a ss shop to do it for you. Looks like fensports got one under their belt



good luck to all who attempt this in the future!

[stephen_lee]

i was thinkiing about this, and honestly with the drivetrain, suspension, and such of a gt4 you can most likely do this. i will most likely fing a 6gc with a blown motor/tranny as a shell for this project.