Hard Fuel lines and brake lines, NEED ADVICE!!! what to do? Options

[6gsillyca]

LONG READ

A few weeks ago, i was having some issues with my brakes. the symptoms lead me to believe it was the master brake cylinder. I took it to a shop to have them look at it and tell me for sure what the problem was. it turned out to be my hard brake lines, i guess they were all rotten out. No big deal. I ok the shop to do the work. It was supposed to have taken a day or two. I dropped the car off on thursday (15th), and just got it back yesterday. When I ask why it was supposed to take a day or two and ended up taking 2 weeks, i was told it was the dealers fault because of the way they shipped it (ups ground), and they had no control over how dealer ships their parts. After they got the parts, it still took 4 days to get it done and back to me. By now im getting impatient as i need my car to drive to work everyday. W/e its not a HUGE deal, as long as everything is done right I didnt mind waiting.

Anyways, i pick it up yesterday, and was NOT impressed. The owner wasnt in when i went to pick it up, and the slackjaws told me to come back this morning to talk with him about the issues i am having.

First thing i noticed when i left was my door handle was loose (handle, lock cylinder) it seemes like someone was really tugging on it while it was locked.

second is now i have a grinding noise comming from front left wheel well, that is noticible when turning left at 50+mph

third and most importaint is now i have a fuel leak. One line sprays a mist of fuel when it is running (line that is attached to the gas tank, either main line or return line) and the other has the black rubber piece connected to it (not the hard coating, but the soft rubber hose). That one is now leaking as well.

Here are the answers I got when i went into the shop this morning and talked to the owner (note that he DIDNT move from behind his desk, go out side and actually look at the car):

door handle - "it was like that when you dropped it off"

grinding - "everything is rusted under there. could be sound from anything. my mech. only bled the brakes in the front area, so problem was there before"

fuel leak - "everything is rusted under there. i had to drop the tank to change the lines. im not surprised you have a leak. they moved when i dropped the tank, but they were already rusted so its not my fault. take it to the dealer."


when he told me about the fuel lines i asked him "why didnt you tell me they were rusted before? couldnt you have told me about it before you did all the work? If they were that bad i would have changed them out as well. besides they run together anyways, so if you are taking out the brake lines, and dropping the tank and taking everything off...the fuel lines are right next to them

response - "thats a totally different problem. you wanted a brake pedal, so thats what we did. fix your brakes. take it to the dealership to get the fuel leak fixed" meanwhile im thinking *if you couldnt fix it then i would have taken it to the dealership from the beginning, had them fix my brake lines and save on the labor of taking everything off twice!*


i ask him why my other celica the lines are all nice and neat, attached to clips, and on the one they worked on the brake lines are all bent out of place, and why everything is all loose under there.

response - "it was like that because of the rust, there were no clips. we had to bent the lines to get them to fit"



So now im looking at fixing/replacing fuel lines. Is this a hard job? Is it much harder then changing the hard brake lines? Was the owner right saying its a harder job, or was he just bs'ing me? Can i just cut the rusted lines out, get black lines from napa and patch new lines in?

Is there anything i can do because like i said, the car is in worse shape now than when i dropped it off?


this is my other celica to compare the way the lines are routed



this is my car after the shop





this is after sitting for less than a minute


This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Mar 30, 2007 - 12:14 PM

[jc47]

From your pictures, it looks like the only thing that is leaking is the rusted fuel return line right near the rubber hose. If this is the only leak, I would just cut the steel tube above the rusted part and replace the hose with a longer piece. Make sure you use 'fuel injection' rated tubing. The vent line and supply line appear to be ok from the pictures, I would leave them alone. Running all new steel fuel lines is a real pain, I would try to avoid this if at all possible.

It doesn't seem acceptable that they would give you the car back leaking fuel like that. The line probably was rusted and about to break off when you brought it in, but like you say they should have at least mentioned it at some point.

[6gsillyca]

In the last 2 pics of the car the leaking one is the one with the rubber hose clamped onto the steel one. it runs right next to the tank, and next to the tank it is all rusted out as well.

what should i use to cut the metal (so i dont blow it up) and how would i drain the return line?

[Coomer]

You'd probably need to drop the tank and use a tubing cutter. I don't know if you could get one in there with everything in place.

[Negative]

I agree - there is no way to get a tubing cutter in there like that. Sux man. That's why i started working on my own cars and now I will not take my car to a mech unless it's the last option. Buy a book for your car and learn - that's my best advice. Only you care enough about you're car to get the job done right the first time.
BTW - a 6th gen is probably the esasiest car I've ever worked on. The hard part is getting over you're fear of inexerience.

[My2Celi]

why not sue them for not doing there job? You have the pictures to show a before and after. It sounds like they have degraded your car. I don't trust no one with my car.

[jc47]

Use a hack saw or one of those mini tubing cutters. Just don't use any type of grinder. What I usually do is remove the blade from the hack saw, bend it as necessary and cut the tube using the blade by itself. It takes a little while (may take 20 mins to cut through this way), but it is easier than removing the tank. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I would file any rough edges or burrs on the end of the tube, which may cut into the rubber hose. You may be able to cut it right at the bottom of the bend and slip the hose over the bend. I'd start by removing the rubber hose at the bottom (have a gas can ready). If there is a lot of gas in the tank, quite a bit will usually siphon out of that line if you disconnect it.

[Batman722]

I am so sorry to see this (partly bacause I know this is gonna happen to my ST soon).

When they dropped the tank I bet they didn't remove the fuel lines first (to the pump) and that put added stress on the rusted lines and obviously they didn't hold up.

If you really want to do this yourself it wouldn't be too too bad, you would just need to remove the fuel pump (easy), drop the tank, and replace the bad rusted lines. You should shape and bend new lines (like Coomer did in his renovation thread) and attach them accordingly. You should get the car up in the air on a lift or on some high jack stands to get this done.

about any metal clips not being there, that's what caused the lines to rust through. The metal clips that hold the ebrake cable, brake lines and fuel lines all rust out, and then cause the lines to go with them.

oh yea, don't use a hack saw to cut through a fuel line, that is a very very bad idea.

[6gsillyca]

I would like to try and avoid dropping the tank unless I ABSOLUTELY have to, as i am worried that i might mess up the remaining lines more. I know a tube cutter would work best but i dont think i will have enough clearance w/o dropping the tank/removing the lines.

I do try and do most of the work myself, and i like to learn while im at it, problem was i had no idea where to start when my brakes died on me. i figured it was the mster cylinder, but wanted a shop to verify that before i swapped it out (i dont know how to tell a blown master cylinder apart from a functioning M/C)

I would like to attempt the fuel lines myself as well, but dont have time to "learn". i currently work almost 80 hrs a week, and at the same time, am trying figure things out so i can put my other celi back together for spring.

the "before" pics are from my other celica, just to show how the lines are supposed to run, and how the shop ended up running them.

I will try and get it up on some stands and have a look at the lines sometime this weekend. I will probably just end up cutting out the few inces of rusted lines and put some neoprene lines (petroleum resistant) in place for now. Just so i dont leak/spray fuel everywhere.

As for emptying the tank, thats a whole new problem. i filled it right up as soon as i drove away from the shop. so i have a full tank of gas at the moment (well not full, as half probably leaked out already ) Should i just drive the car until almost empty then try and do the lines?

[jc47]

oh yea, don't use a hack saw to cut through a fuel line, that is a very very bad idea.

I've done it many times before, it works fine. Cut slowly and try to angle the tube down so that the metal filings don't get into the fuel line.

I'd stick with replacing the few inches of line if at all possible. I've run all new fuel lines before and it really takes a lot of time; especially if you want them to look professionally done. My guess is the shop that you went to didn't know what they were getting into with the brake lines.

[6gsillyca]

Would it hurt anything if i just ran 1/2' of rubber hose instead of having the hard line? I wouldnt think so because if it is the return line, then there is no need for it to hold its pressure (rubber lines will flex a bit) as much as say the supply line, where the ecu is counting on a certain amount of pressure to be there...


How well/would it be a good idea to use some sort of pinch cutter (wire cutter or similar) to cut the bad lines out, use a file to file off the pinched area, and then use a couple strong magnets, run the alone the lines a few times towards the gap?

Or to use pinch cutter (wire cutter again) to cut the lines off, then use a set of pliers to bend "open" the line again. it wouldnt be perfectly round, but if it is only the return line then would it matter?


This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Mar 31, 2007 - 12:11 PM

[jc47]

Would it hurt anything if i just ran 1/2' of rubber hose instead of having the hard line?

Right, this is what I was suggesting to save time. Just make sure that you use fuel injection hose. The pressure is no problem (return line has little pressure anyway) but the fuel injection hose has a liner that is resistant to oxygenated fuel, ethanol, etc. It is probably 8mm line, but you can usually use 5/16" hose.

As for the pinch cutter, I've only used one to remove old lines. I can't tell you for sure, but it would probably work as long as you could open the tube back up with pliers and file down any rough edges. The line needs to be open, but doesn't need to be perfectly round. I lost you at the magnets though. If you do decide to go this route, I'd practice on a piece of scrap tubing before you cut anything on the car. If you don't have any, buy a small piece to practice on when you get the hose.

[6gsillyca]

I just noticed today that the one line with the plastic shield (with the things that look like nuts connecting the lines) seemes to be leaking as well...Im not sure if the fuel is leaking out of the one line and dripping onto the other one or if the other one has sprung a leak aswell. the drips are coming from right where the "nuts" are. is that my supply line? would it be possible to replace that segment of where the "nuts" are with rubber hose as well?

I was thinking of using magnets and going along the good part of the lines to pull out any metal shards that might be left in the lines from filing/cutting. if there are any fragments they should get pulled along the lines until they get to the gap where they "should" come out. Im not sure if the way it works out in my mind is the way it would work out in real life though...

[alltracman78]

Would it hurt anything if i just ran 1/2' of rubber hose instead of having the hard line?

Right, this is what I was suggesting to save time. Just make sure that you use fuel injection hose. The pressure is no problem (return line has little pressure anyway) but the fuel injection hose has a liner that is resistant to oxygenated fuel, ethanol, etc. It is probably 8mm line, but you can usually use 5/16" hose.

EXCELLENT advice.
Most folks don't think of this.

[6gsillyca]

so i was able to put the car up on stands and just took of the black plastic that shields the hard lines. It looks like the leak is after the bend that comes out from on top of the tank, along the straight bit before the last bend, and the rubber hose. in the last pic of the lines you can see it looks as if its cracked (looks like it expanded from the inside and stretched out). judging from the pics it looks like just before the first bend the lines are still good, and it is just after the first bend the lines crap out.

I would say i would need to drop the tank a few inches to get in there. Can someone give me a quick how to on dropping the tank? is it just the 2 "straps" that run under the tank that is holding it up? Could i just loosen those straps, get a jackstand put under the tank and lower it? It looks like the straps are attached to hinges on the underside. Would the hinges give me enough clearance, or do i need to remove the straps completely. Should i drain the tank first (i filled it up before i knew it was leaking...)? How should i drain it? Just drive it? Or would i be able to unplug the rubber hose, run that into a gas can, and just run the car. If it is the return line it should put the fuel into the can instead of back into the tank?

Thanks for all the help thusfar guys! This community is great!


The place i went to to look for parts had 2 grades of hose. one was good for 50psi (fuel injectors), and the other ~10psi (carbs) The 50psi was $.80/" and the other was only something like $.15/"

Can someone confirm that 5/16 will work for me? I was going to get the high pressure hose just to be safe, but want to make sure i get the right size, cuz that stuff is expensive...almost $10/ft....

This post has been edited by 6gsillyca: Apr 1, 2007 - 4:24 PM

[alltracman78]

The 2 straps and the fill tube.
Assuming the wiring has enough slack.

The hinges should allow the straps to pivot out of the way completely.

Use a jack [with a piece of wood] instead of a jack stand.
If you want to drain the tank, jump FP and B+ in your diag box under the hood.
That should run the fuel pump.
Trace the line from your fuel filter. This is the feed line. It's most likely the one leaking anyways, considering the amount leaking.
Stick it in a pail.

But you shouldn't have to if you use a jack. Up to you. It will be safer....
Be aware the fuel from the line will be draining out on you.

[6gsillyca]

What wiring do i need to worry about? all i saw under there was hard/rubber lines...no electrical wires (if thats what you are talking about)


so to lower the tank all i need to do is...

-place a jack with wood (so i dont dent the tank/broader support area?) under the tank
-unbolt the straps
-move straps out of the way (by pivot you mean swing away from the chassis, towards the ground, then back up towards the chassis on the other side (swing towards front of car)
-lower the jack with the wood/tank sitting ontop

where/what do i do with the fill tube? What does it look like? Thats the actual tank fill tube (when you "fill up")?

what do you mean "you shouldn't have to if you use a jack. Up to you. It will be safer...." is this the jack that holds the tank up? if i dont have it then wouldnt the weight of the tank put more stress on the lines?


Wouldnt the bigger line with the 3 rusty bolts and plastic covering ONTOP of the hard line (as opposed to being a rubber line INSTEAD of hard line) be the supply line? I assumed this was supply as it is thicker and bigger...

[jc47]

Ok I see what you mean about the magnets, but I'm not sure how well it would work. Normally if you can angle the fuel line down when you are cutting it, this will prevent most of the filings from getting in the line. If a few filings get into the line, it shouldn't cause a problem, since there is a strainer in the tank, plus the fuel filter by the engine.

There will be wiring for the fuel pump/level sender. You probably won't have to worry about it if you are only lowering the tank a few inches.

[6gsillyca]

Well i was going to lower it to get a mini tube cutter in there. I need to lower it anyways to get my fat hands in to change the lines anyways, so I got a tube cutter to make things easier to cut.

I wasnt sure how well the magnets would work, but since i have a tube cutter, that should minimize on the loose metal/shavings floating around in the lines.

I still need some pointers on the actual lowering of the tank...

[Hanyo]

it looks like the clips are gone before they shop worked on it. Usually when you remove the plastic clips and what not; the metal under the clips will be relatively clean because it was shielded from the weather. In your case, it looks like the clip has been gone for a long time. Since the clips are not there, its hard for the mechanic to bend the lines back to perfect position.