3sge header to 5sfe, how much of an improvement and will it bolt up? Options

[goferris]

hey all. i've been thinking about getting a header for my pretty much stock 5sfe and have seen the headers on ebay but realised that the 3sge came stock with what looks like a pretty decent header.

i was just wondering if it would better to get a stock 3sge header with the heat shield already attached vs buying a cheap header off ebay then wrapping it. would the performance boost (however little it may be) be about the same?

also i'm pretty sure it would bolt to the engine just fine but how about to the rest of my exhaust system and would it fit in the space there? i'm sure i would eventually just get a whole new exhaust system header back but in the meantime will this fit before hand?

another reason i ask is because i was chatting with lewfx the other day about getting a header and he said it really heat up the engine bay when he had one on his celi. since the 3sge header is a stock one with the heatshield i figured it would be a little bit cooler and a lot better quality than the ebay headers.
TIA



VS



This post has been edited by goferris: Jul 12, 2008 - 9:12 AM

[Bitter]

incase its not apparent in your pictures you posted, the ports are spaced very differently between the 2 heads.

[goferris]

incase its not apparent in your pictures you posted, the ports are spaced very differently between the 2 heads.

how do you figure that? people use 3sgte turbo headers on 5sfe all the time and the 3sgte is obviously the turboed version of the same motor. shouldn't they match up the same?

please explain your response. from the pictures i can't tell a difference and i'm very perceptive of that kind of stuff.

[goferris]

anyone?

[darthripley]

a 3sge header will bolt up to a 5sfe head.
is the stock header already tubular on your celica?
the only reason i ask is it is on my '99 camry w/5sfe & i'm unsure if it's the same on a 6th gen celica.

honestly, the 3sge header isn't going to give you a big hp bump if your stock header is already tubular in design.
maybe 5hp - 10hp at most, same thing with an ebay header.

if you're concerned about heat in the engine bay, have the header ceramic coated - its not that expensive to have done.

[Rusty]

I'm lovin that 1st 3S-GE engine picture

[808celica]

if the turbo mani works.....then imo i think the 3sge header should fit.

its just when i look now im wondering if the 3sge header flows the same way as the ebay 5s header

[goferris]

a 3sge header will bolt up to a 5sfe head.
is the stock header already tubular on your celica?
the only reason i ask is it is on my '99 camry w/5sfe & i'm unsure if it's the same on a 6th gen celica.

honestly, the 3sge header isn't going to give you a big hp bump if your stock header is already tubular in design.
maybe 5hp - 10hp at most, same thing with an ebay header.

if you're concerned about heat in the engine bay, have the header ceramic coated - its not that expensive to have done.

the stock header on the celi 5sfe isn't tubular like the camry so it should be considerably better

celica

vs camry

I'm lovin that 1st 3S-GE engine picture

i stole the pic lol
if you want it back you'll have to pay a ransom

if the turbo mani works.....then imo i think the 3sge header should fit.

its just when i look now im wondering if the 3sge header flows the same way as the ebay 5s header

i think it depends on the header. if you look at the 2 i posted they both are different.
the thing i like most about the 3sge header though is that i can put on a heat shield if i'd like without any custom work

This post has been edited by goferris: Jul 14, 2008 - 3:27 AM

[darthripley]

well then the 3sge header would be a more substantial improvement for you vs. the stock log style in the pic above.

the only problem you might run into would be how it would mate up to your b-pipe ... sorry i can't help there, but you should be able to take it to any exhaust shop & get it welded somehow.

[DEATH]

incase its not apparent in your pictures you posted, the ports are spaced very differently between the 2 heads.

The above statement is totally false.
I can testify that the header in the first pic will bolt right up to the 5S head. You will need a different bPipe cause the bigger head [wider angle to be more correct] on the 3S-GE will cause the bottom of the header to be closer to the block than on the 3s.
Been here - done this already on a 5S MR2. The quality and the ease of Heatshield mounting are definetly worth it. It definetly flows a little better too. I'd expect the gains are the same as an ebay header but better quality.
Just for cheaps sake tho - you know you can always bolt a heatshield like the 3S one to a ebay header with a little weld work to add the mounts for it. You'd just bolt the mounts to the heatshield already, do some grinding work to get the fits as close as possible and then have your local muffler shop weld it on. I'd rather your original idea tho [I've had an ebay header before and the quality is just so so at best].
BTW - Since it hasn't been pointed out yet - you'd want a 3rd or 4th gen 3S-GE header - the USDM 1st gen ones aren't much [if any] better than the stock 5S one from the later Camry's [which is actually slightly better than the Celica one BTW].
As you can see I've done my research on this subject a few years back and actually done some header swapping on my friend's N/A MR2 [Both Camry and 3rd gen 3s]. So hands on - not speculation .

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jul 14, 2008 - 2:13 PM

[goferris]

i plan on getting one from japan off a 6gc 3sge motor (with the help of stetsonaw) if i do though i'll probably do a whole header back system while i'm at it just for ease and the fact i don't really like the look of my current muffler and my cat is all bent to hell from hitting a rock a while back (don't drive on dirt roads if possible.)
thanks for the info death

This post has been edited by goferris: Jul 14, 2008 - 5:03 PM

[DEATH]

Watch getting one from a BEAMS tho - it may be identical or it may be different due to head design change [I wouldn't think the port spacing would be different since the pistons are in the same place but IDK] - what I'm saying is I have never had the pleasure of trying to bolt one of those up so i can't be sure of it.
Oh, and sure - anytime.

[Batman722]

IIRC bigmeanbulldog tried fitting a 3sge header on his 5s and it didn't fit properly.

ferris, PM sent

[DEATH]

I'll dig up pics for that install on the MR2 - the bottom had to be cut and a new peice made because the bpipe would have had to have a funky jog down to clear the oil pan with room to spare but the basic Header part bolted up just fine. far as I know the car is still runnin like that with nitrous.
I'll find the pics as soon as my other comp is back up.
Hell - look at it this way - if the 2nd gen 3S-GTE manifold bolts up to both the 5s and the 3rd gen 3S-GE - why wouldn't 3rd gen 3S-GE not bolt up to 5s?

Edit: Found this: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...1&hl=header and it would seem he says the entire manifold is stretched [from what I can gather] but that makes zero sense if the HG's still work and the 3rd gen is a drop in upgrade to the 2nd gen how would they fit? Wouldn't the motor be longer in that case if ever so slightly? At any rate I know we bolted some 3S-GE header to a 5S head and it wasn't 1st gen cause that header is no better than 5s really [especially the Camry version which we also bolted up]. Seeing as the header probably came from MR2oc would it be more likely a 2nd gen 3S header? Anybody have pics of one of those? It appeared to be the same one as OP posted but that's pics over a comp so...
What might also be telling is has anyone tried to Turbo their 3rd Gen 3S-GE with 2nd Gen 3s-GTE manifold/Turbo/DP? UK guys?
Hopefully my other comp will be back from the shop tommorrow and I have the file saved with an indicative name so I can post up the progress pics I have. This is exactly why I always take pics of these kinds of things.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jul 14, 2008 - 7:21 PM

[Rusty]

i stole the pic lol
if you want it back you'll have to pay a ransom

i'll pay you in HP, since I've got heaps

I know this is kind of thread stealing, but whats the differences in gians (if any) between 4-1 and 4-2-1 extrators?

[delusionz]

They just want our JDM goodies, Doubtful it will do much on it's own without our larger valves/cams & ACIS manifold etc, Prolly sound a bit better I guess, 4-2-1 is designed to line up exhaust pulses perfectly so that the vacuum of 1 hot gas shooting out the back pulls the following pulse straight out with it in a chain reaction (hence the name extractors) and generally the aftermarket designs have long header pipes which go down right below the engine before joining in with the main stream, this improves flow.

FE engines don't really need performance exhaust since they're designed to be economical, get you from A to B with efficient low-end torque and nothing to waste at the top, Basically they don't open up with huge intake valves and they don't burn gas at a rate of 7,000 RPMs (3500 x 2lt of exhaust per minute) hence they were fitted with smaller who gives a crap pipes.

[Galcobar]

4-2-1 generally favours a broader range of RPMs at which it flows well, whereas 4-1 tends to be more specific.

Whether and how much each favours the lower, middle or upper RPM ranges depdends on runner lengths. That said, stock designs typically favour the lower end of the spectrum to improve drivability (read stop-and-go traffic), even on more performance-oriented G heads.

[RavenAegis45]

So the headers from a camry are better shaped than the Celica's? but would the stock cat still fit on these headers? or would i have to get that from a camry to?