5s-fe 3s-ge head? Options

[myloth]

The 5s-fe and the 3s-ge,3s-gte are the same motor with different heads no?

Then why is everybody so juiced to swap in the 3s-gte?When couldnt use a 3s-ge head from late 90s on a 5s-fe and get about 200bhp without a turbo?

Or am i missing something?

I'm basing this on a 2.0l 3s-ge from late 90s having about 175hp and putting that head onto the stroker 2.2l block seems to make sense?

People talk like the 5s-fe is a different engine when its just a different head and longer throw crank?


Or could even a 3sgte head work without the turbo?

[Taskbot]

any time you try and bolt a different head to a different bottom things always get a little strange. I don't know if anyone has tried to do this really but I can imagine its because the 5S-FE internals cannot handle the revs and power that the 3S-GE head is designed.

I really have no experience with the S engine but with the 7A-GE and 9A-GE there's a lot of different and hilarious things you have to do to jimmy the thing into working condition and almost every build has different specs even though its supposed to be "bolt on"

This post has been edited by Taskbot: Aug 27, 2008 - 11:05 AM

[D-Man]

It's been done, and with Phenomenal results.

Update Dyno Sheet

233.3kw-312whp on 16lb @ 6500rpm.

[DEATH]

any time you try and bolt a different head to a different bottom things always get a little strange. I don't know if anyone has tried to do this really but I can imagine its because the 5S-FE internals cannot handle the revs and power that the 3S-GE head is designed.

I really have no experience with the S engine but with the 7A-GE and 9A-GE there's a lot of different and hilarious things you have to do to jimmy the thing into working condition and almost every build has different specs even though its supposed to be "bolt on"

?!? So much misinformation in that post. Please don't speculate when answering a question like this.

D-Man - I think he means N/A but yeah - Ice's engine is crazy.

OP - the answer is yes - it can and has been done before. The reason it's not done more often seems to be cost vs gain. - the ideas you posted were the right ideas but there is sooo much more to it than that and consequently alot more cost as well. For starters you'll need a standalone ECU and a bunch of tuning to get it running. That's the short answer - read Ice's thread for the long one.

[reko]

No its not the same motor, its the same serie, the S serie, juste like the JZ serie

3s-ge:
Capacity: 1998 cc (121.9 ci)
Bore x Stroke: 86 x 86 mm (3.39 x 3.39 in)
Intake Valve Diameter: 33.5 mm (1.32 in)
Exhaust Valve Diameter: 29.0 mm (1.14 in)
Included Valve Angle: 44.5 degrees

5s-fe:
Capacity: 2162 cc
Bore: 3.43 in (87,12mm)
Stroke: 3.58 in (90,93mm)
Compression ratio: 9.5:1

Different bore and stroke... can be adjust but need work... also the head doesnt fit exactly at 100% it needs custom work. All the trouble to make that possible would cost you more for less than a 3s-gte

5S-FE
This engine was essentially the same basic design as the 3S-FE, but featured an increased stroke, and the total displacement was increased to 2.2 L. It was only marketed for the American and Australian markets, and are used in the 5th and 6th generation Celica, the 2nd generation MR2, the 3rd and 4th generation Camry, as well as the 1st generation Camry Solara.

3S-FE
The Toyota 3S-FE is a 16 valve 2.0L twin camshaft, single cam gear engine built by Toyota from 1986 to 2000. Its common use is in the Toyota Camry 1987-1992 model, the Toyota Celica 1986-1989, Toyota Carina II 1987-1992 and E 1993-1998 models, Toyota Corona T190 as well as Toyota Avensis 1997-2000 models and Toyota RAV4, 1994-2000 and Toyota Picnic/Ipsum 1996-2002. It also powers the 6th generation Toyota Celica SS-I and SS-2(Japanese Domestic Market only).

3S-GE
Modified Toyota 3S-GEThe engine used in the Toyota Celica GT-S versions, from 1986 to 1989 in the US and 1986 to 1999 everywhere else, after which they switched to the 5sfe in the US and then the Toyota ZZ engine.

3S-GE BEAMS
The fourth generation of the Toyota 3S-GE series, dubbed by Toyota as "Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System". This series is technically advanced, even more so than the 2JZ-GTE. The first generation engine (Red Top) uses single cam VVT-i, the second (Black Top) employs dual VVT-i (on both the intake and exhaust) to provide 150 kW. It is available on the Toyota Altezza, Celica, Corona and MR2 and is the only 3S-GE to arrive in a rear-wheel drive layout from factory.

This post has been edited by reko: Aug 27, 2008 - 1:36 PM

[Taskbot]

any time you try and bolt a different head to a different bottom things always get a little strange. I don't know if anyone has tried to do this really but I can imagine its because the 5S-FE internals cannot handle the revs and power that the 3S-GE head is designed.

I really have no experience with the S engine but with the 7A-GE and 9A-GE there's a lot of different and hilarious things you have to do to jimmy the thing into working condition and almost every build has different specs even though its supposed to be "bolt on"

?!? So much misinformation in that post. Please don't speculate when answering a question like this.

Alright, I will try not to speculate that much but I was just thinking about the engineering and how it would work in theory. If you lengthen the stroke the rev limit would suffer and although the 5S internals are well proven I was unsure that they would handle a red line that high.

[myloth]

Ok makes sense I couldnt find out that much.
<br>
Anybody ever use the 3s-ge with the vvt?And is it possible to get close to 200bhp out of non turboized 3s-gte?
<br>
I'm not big turbo fan I had some turbo cars but just adds to the expense and hassle in my view.
<br>
Not looking for 500bhp either just more than the puny 135 in my 94.Why is it the Japanese always put crippled engines in US cars and offer some beast motor everywhere else.
<br>
<br>
Would like to keep motor cost to 2k.(I can get a rebuilt 5s-fe for 2k.Mine has 188k and I'm the nervous type.No labor involved as I can put it in myself.

[DEATH]

I think you'd be better served swapping in the BEAMS 3S-GE from an SS-III - sounds perfect for your goals but maybe not for your wallet. Gotta pay to play tho.

[myloth]

Beams shoot I think I'd be better off getting a rebuilt 5s-fe and 10lb bottle of nitrous save a few beans.

[GriffGirl]

Why is it the Japanese always put crippled engines in US cars and offer some beast motor everywhere else.

US emissions is why. Or so they say.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

just to let you know the 5s block is completly diff to any 3s block. For a start the block is physically taller by around 50mm (2" for you stone age non metric people ) because the 5s runs balance shafts in the lower end of the block.

a mate of mine has done a 5sge in a 162 celica with pleasing results, used the gen1 3s-ge head. bit of die grinding is needed on the head to make the water jackets line up.

contrary to popular belief the 5s crank is strong enough to handle big hp. sure it doesnt rev as hard as the 3s stock, but think about it, engines like sr20 and 4g63 are under square (longer stroke then bore) so with some balancing and attention a 5s stroker could rev to 7 or 8 fine, any more revs and your just asking for trouble, you dont need to rev that hard anyway because above 5 or 6k a stroker wont make any more power then the 3s.

[myloth]

Why is it the Japanese always put crippled engines in US cars and offer some beast motor everywhere else.

US emissions is why. Or so they say.

Well I don't know about that owning cars like an 86 Omni-GLH,88 Tbird Turbo Coupe,99 Taurus SHO and friends driving stuff from that era like 92 Spirit rt(Evil back in the day with few mods),even my sisters byfriend owns a 95 z28 with over 300hp with very few mods at the wheel!All these were close to bone stock Toyota had other reasons than emissons. I can see the ST as Poser mobile but if the "GT" is the performance model eh it's really a nice car too otherwise I admit handles great,look good just got jipped when they gave out hp.

[Rusty]

3S-FE
The Toyota 3S-FE is a 16 valve 2.0L twin camshaft, single cam gear engine built by Toyota from 1986 to 2000. Its common use is in the Toyota Camry 1987-1992 model, the Toyota Celica 1986-1989, Toyota Carina II 1987-1992 and E 1993-1998 models, Toyota Corona T190 as well as Toyota Avensis 1997-2000 models and Toyota RAV4, 1994-2000 and Toyota Picnic/Ipsum 1996-2002. It also powers the 6th generation Toyota Celica SS-I and SS-2(Japanese Domestic Market only).

wrong just SS-I not SS-II (SS-II had 3Gen 3S-GE and 4Gen 3S-GE)

This series is technically advanced, even more so than the 2JZ-GTE

...2JZ-GTE...3L twin Turbo VVT-i?



the 3gen 3S-GE in my opinion is the better of 3S-GE's

[Taskbot]

I can see the ST as Poser mobile but if the "GT" is the performance model eh it's really a nice car too otherwise I admit handles great,look good just got jipped when they gave out hp.

This made me die a little inside :'(

[Tech-Nics]

JDM cars built for the JDM market will always be better than any USDM cars. Even the cars built here in the states for the JDM are built better than the one for our market. They always have the better options and slighty stronger engines. This applies to all Makes too from Japan. Funny thing to cause all of our domestic car makes here that are sold in other regions are as good as ours. Kinda unfair when you think about it. Besides most people in Japan don't really care for the USDM cars either. So they can give us the slower cars and really not care to much about it. Plus to the US has tons of safety laws & emissions too. Which doesn't help the problem. Then again if we have the slower and less powerfull versions than the JDM ones. Why is it that their speedo only goes to 110 mph and ours are 140mph+.

This post has been edited by Tech-Nics: Aug 28, 2008 - 8:45 AM

[Taskbot]

JDM cars built for the JDM market will always be better than any USDM cars. Even the cars built here in the states for the JDM are built better than the one for our market. They always have the better options and slighty stronger engines. This applies to all Makes too from Japan. Funny thing to cause all of our domestic car makes here that are sold in other regions are as good as ours. Kinda unfair when you think about it. Besides most people in Japan don't really care for the USDM cars either. So they can give us the slower cars and really not care to much about it. Plus to the US has tons of safety laws & emissions too. Which doesn't help the problem. Then again if we have the slower and less powerfull versions than the JDM ones. Why is it that their speedo only goes to 110 mph and ours are 140mph+.

There's a few things I want to add to this conversation even though its going slightly off topic. Cars in japan are electronically limited to 180km/h from the factory. No cars are safe from this even the new GT-R also has this problem. (and the limiter is released only at Nissan sanctioned tracks; this fact has sparked a lot of discussion)

Also not all JDM cars are more powerful than the USDM ones. The Gen IV Supra, put out 330HP in the US and 276 in Japan. This was during the time of the Gentleman's agreement to not exceed 280PS (276HP) in Japanese cars.

I think a lot of the JDM availability comes down to emissions laws, which were less strict in Japan. Most of the cars the USDM gets were basically guaranteed to repeatedly pass emissions testing especially in California. Where a 5S-FE might pass with flying colors a 3S-GE/3S-GTE might not. That being said the Gen IV. Supra Turbo was not available in California, New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts because of the stricter emissions regulations.

If you want to discuss this more we should start another thread and not spam this one.

[Rusty]

Why is it that their speedo only goes to 110 mph and ours are 140mph+.

I guess in km/h thats 180km/h?? we have speed cut (and rev limiter) in Japan it stops people driving/racing way from the cops etc, but this can be deleted with a apexi power FC or a Apexi RSM or new ECU

[nik]

any time you try and bolt a different head to a different bottom things always get a little strange. I don't know if anyone has tried to do this really but I can imagine its because the 5S-FE internals cannot handle the revs and power that the 3S-GE head is designed.

I really have no experience with the S engine but with the 7A-GE and 9A-GE there's a lot of different and hilarious things you have to do to jimmy the thing into working condition and almost every build has different specs even though its supposed to be "bolt on"

ok i want to clear a little of this up on here that i know of there are only 2 of us that have done 7a with the 4a head swap

the head is yes just a bolt on with apr 4a bolts the main probelm is the timing belt getting it set up to work right in my case we set up a different pulley system









then the coolant setup is the next problem but easily fixed with a few parts of a fwd 4a

[DEATH]

Of course the OP is talking about 5S/3S - same idea but IDK if the solutions will be the same. You probably already knew that but just in case.

[GTSOwner]

OFF TOPIC


God those cam gears are sexy *drooool*