Torque and maybe swap, kinda long sorry bout that Options

[6G96GT]

So, I am wondering what torque gains/losses would I see for the following on my current 5sfe;

Performance Header (ported with head to match flow characteristics)
Stock piping diameter from front to back but with a High Flow Cat and with a Performance Resonator
SRI with Perf. Filter
Webcams 294 grind (mild option)

I am wondering because I am trying to figure out how much torque I should have vs the stock torque of a 3sge engine.

My mech. friend has made an offer I cannot refuse but I want to see if it's worth it or not. My 5sfe engine is in excellent shape and I had a lot of work done to it probably equaling around 5G's this summer. Anyway, my friend offered to fully swap my 5sfe out for a purchased (by me) 3sge including all of the modding and wiring work necessary along with the tranny, ecu, and wiring work for the completed swap.

How much torque does a 3rd gen JDM 3sge engine have? This is what I am looking at buying with the amount and who it'll be bought from:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...#ht_1651wt_1167

I know the bid ended but he has informed me that they have many, many more. The good thing about this place is they take a video of the actual engine showing the ID numbers in the video and do a compression test on that actual engine in the video and then send that engine to you.

This post has been edited by 6G96GT: Dec 2, 2009 - 11:06 PM

[Rusty]

first off i'd try and get a Celica BEAMS 3S, there are a few things that are different between the two which can make the install a bit longer

a 3rd gen 3S-GE gets around 133KW (thats about 110KW@Wheels) & 190NM @ 4,800rpm
a BEAMS 3S-GE gets 147KW (thats about 124KW@Wheels) & 205NM @ 6,000rpm
As you can see the BEAMS makes a bit more power and torque and has VVT-i

I suggest the 3rd gen 3S-GE but thats just me.
if you want to continue heading down a tuned NA route.
If you have checked it out the ACIS/BEAMS sticky thread, hopefully has more info and thoughts for you to help make a decision

[BonzaiCelica]

if i were you i wouldnt spend any more money on the 5sfe. just not worth it to me and you wont get much power from it.

3rd gen 3sge JDM has 178 hp at 7,000 rpm with 142 ft-lb torque
4th gen 3sge Beams Redtop JDM only has 197 hp at 7,000 rpm with 152 ft-lb torque.

getting parts and mods for the 3rd gen will be alot easier to find then getting 4th gen 3sge Beams Redtop.

one thing that puzzles me is why the 4th gen 3sge only redlines to 7,000 rpm. It doesnt make any sense at all. I mean the 3rd gen revs to 7,000. So that should make the 4th gen rev to at least 7,500 rpm.

[6G96GT]

Good stuff guys, thanks. I think I will be more interested in the 3rd gen 3sge also. I'll look into that sticky about that as well.

[Rusty]

^ the 3rd gen rev limiter is 7,500 (apperently) and BEAMS is 7,450rpm (apperently)

I'll try find the posts if anyone wants proof?
EDIT: found it
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...781&hl=3sge

This post has been edited by Rusty: Dec 3, 2009 - 4:43 PM

[trdproven]

if i were you i wouldnt spend any more money on the 5sfe. just not worth it to me and you wont get much power from it.

3rd gen 3sge JDM has 178 hp at 7,000 rpm with 142 ft-lb torque
4th gen 3sge Beams Redtop JDM only has 197 hp at 7,000 rpm with 152 ft-lb torque.

getting parts and mods for the 3rd gen will be alot easier to find then getting 4th gen 3sge Beams Redtop.

one thing that puzzles me is why the 4th gen 3sge only redlines to 7,000 rpm. It doesnt make any sense at all. I mean the 3rd gen revs to 7,000. So that should make the 4th gen rev to at least 7,500 rpm.

Biggest problem with the beams is hard to find parts from aftermarket to OEM. Usually all you get is going through ebay and buying the whole clip but getting the specific parts are hard especially since it was a rare engine. The 3sge motor shares alot with this vvti version but still there are some differences that you hope doesn't have problems in the long run. Commonly found parts are for the regular 3sge and 3sgte but then again if you want NA power then you could spend a little time and money on a V6 motor that still has parts support from the dealer or remanufactured companies. I believe there is only one way to truly build the celica, get your moneys worth or not waste money, and not waste time and energy, and that is to turbo it. Unless that is too much money and time, then just put intake, plugs, wires, cams, headers, exhaust, port polish, clutch, flywheel, ignition upgrade and tune your 5sfe, that should make you happy enough if you wanted the cheapest NA.

When you buy a clip you don't just drop it in and youre done, there troubleshooting costs, parts replacement cost, top rebuild, gaskets, everything change, and you still didn't even get the bolt on upgrades yet. With a motor swap, look to spend between 5-8 grand and more if you are not doing the labor.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Dec 3, 2009 - 11:46 PM

[6G96GT]

Good to know TRD. I had a nasty built up turbo car before. It was an eagle talon awd tsi. I dumped 12G's into just the engine and had it fully built with all the best goods. It was running around 25 psi and I had a high end stand alone management system for it. I had it tuned and everything. I spent more money on that car and I ended up selling it for 5G with a blown head gasket only 2 years after building it. The head gasket was a cometic one with APR head studs. Anyway, I love turbo cars (from the factory) BUT I will never put money into a turbo setup again (the talon was already a turbo car).

My celica has only run me 1/2 the cost of the talon and it is way more dependable. It runs very well and I thoroughly like it. I know I can get the swap done for less then you have mentioned. My friend is a diesel tractor mechanic and works on sports cars of all kinds on his free time. He owes me a massive favor and has offered to do the swap for me free as I mentioned. He also gets really good deals on parts and I can even get new parts from my cousin (who owns his own garage) at 0 mark up.

If the 3sge gets me more power from the get go, then I would just do exactly what you wrote: I'd probably do a port/polish on the head with an intake and full exhaust set up, then add cams and tune it. I can't see how difficult that would be and I think I'd be over the 200 hp mark (with a 173 bhp 3sge) and maybe upto 160 foot per pound torque, maybe more? That would be great for me.

This post has been edited by 6G96GT: Dec 4, 2009 - 2:58 PM

[presure2]

Good to know TRD. I had a nasty built up turbo car before. It was an eagle talon awd tsi. I dumped 12G's into just the engine and had it fully built with all the best goods. It was running around 25 psi and I had a high end stand alone management system for it. I had it tuned and everything. I spent more money on that car and I ended up selling it for 5G with a blown head gasket only 2 years after building it. The head gasket was a cometic one with APR head studs. Anyway, I love turbo cars (from the factory) BUT I will never put money into a turbo setup again (the talon was already a turbo car).

My celica has only run me 1/2 the cost of the talon and it is way more dependable. It runs very well and I thoroughly like it. I know I can get the swap done for less then you have mentioned. My friend is a diesel tractor mechanic and works on sports cars of all kinds on his free time. He owes me a massive favor and has offered to do the swap for me free as I mentioned. He also gets really good deals on parts and I can even get new parts from my cousin (who owns his own garage) at 0 mark up.

If the 3sge gets me more power from the get go, then I would just do exactly what you wrote: I'd probably do a port/polish on the head with an intake and full exhaust set up, then add cams and tune it. I can't see how difficult that would be and I think I'd be over the 200 hp mark (with a 173 bhp 3sge) and maybe upto 160 foot per pound torque, maybe more? That would be great for me.

the 3sge makes a great daily driver car, thats kinda quick on the top end.
if you want a swap that will has potential to make GREAT power, will easily make 225+whp in stock form, and be 100% factory reliable, just quit playing around, and go 3rd gen 3sgte.
the beams, and 3rd gen 3sgte are the 2 easiest swaps into a 6th gen GT, IMO. there are only a hand full of wires for the wireing, the mounts bolt right up, and all the plugs just plug right in.
the 3rd gen 3sgte in stock form makes 250+hp, (flywheel) and with an intake and exhaust will easily make 300whp without hitting fuel cut in a celica.
you could drive a 3rd gen 3s around for YEARS at 15+ Psi, without any problems, just change the oil, and do your matinence like you would with any other motor. no need for any sort of build, or tuning, or any of that, either.
also,..if your looking for low end tq, that is NOT the 3sge strong suit. that motor is definetly made to rev high.

[Mstoochn]

in any case the engine bay of a celica (without silly costly modifications) power vs $ value.... nothing can compare to forced induction, even if its a stock engine (4a-gze, 3s-gte). if you want to build something without high intensions, a big bank account, and the money to keep it running. your just throwing money away

altho, a beams 3s-gte could be interesting

3s-ge really has no power until it switches to the performance cam (beams only) which is around 6k rpm. i do believe the torque curve on the 5s-fe is higher than the 3s-ge

This post has been edited by Mstoochn: Dec 4, 2009 - 10:14 PM

[Rusty]

3s-ge really has no power until it switches to the performance cam (beams only) which is around 6k rpm

yea

uhhh what?

i do believe the torque curve on the 5s-fe is higher than the 3s-ge

Using the above as examples BEAMS 3S-GE vs 5S-FE

BEAMS @ 2,000rpm 17kg-m (122ft-lbs)
5S-FE @ 2,000rpm 15kg-m (110ft-lbs)

BEAMS @ 4,000rpm 19kg-m (137ft-lbs)
5S-FE @ 4,000rpm 17kg-m (125ft-lbs)

BEAMS @ 6,000rpm 21kg-m (151ft-lbs)
5S-FE @ 6,000rpm 13.8kg-m (100ft-lbs)

BEAMS @ 7,000rpm 20kg-m (144ft-lbs)
5S-FE @ 7,000rpm (Nope, sorry)

This post has been edited by Rusty: Dec 4, 2009 - 10:18 PM

[6G96GT]

Very good points of view. I will need to rethink my plans for a bit. Thanks guys.