Boosting Beams, Plans and improvement on those plans Options

[ricochet1490]

I' ve been considering this as my build progresses and it's something I want to do after I get the car on the road.... but something I want to do nonetheless. I don't want a terribly high investment but 200+ WHP would be a great feeling.... and this is where I'm looking for expertise outside of mine....

Internals are remaining factory
Looking at going with a supercharger and I don't really like how "cluttered" the engine bay looks with a turbo .... it also isn't as "peaky" and should be more smooth to the power
My initial thought is that I want to keep the stock ECU so I'm assuming I have to stay at about 5psi or so for this to happen?
I'm frankly not sure what the stock beams ecu can handle as far as boost is concerned. Any thoughts?
What are my best tuning options? I want something that is tunable and the toyota ecu not be able to change it (if that makes sense... these things are smart)
I want to keep the CR stock as well. With a proper tune, and the low boost numbers it shouldn't be a big deal I don't think, just gotta watch for knock
Keeping the boost low like that, I'm HOPING that the stock fuel pump is adequate to handle the increased load...
More importantly the injector size of the BEAMS has been debated. The books say 340 cc while the bench test hat the guy did on Daniels injectors reported 400 cc flat. If they are 400cc, I don't think I'll need to upgrade those either... but again, I just don't know.

My biggest questions at the moment are involved around ECU and the tuning, but any and all help would be appreciated

[njccmd2002]

this will cost you a pretty penny, unfortunately its all theory, as not many boosted beams, though difficult not impossible, go head out to MR2.com. youll get better results..

[delusionz]

doing the quick and dirty, maybe you should ask that guy al95st for his bit of kit, adapt it for your beams. use a cheap air/fuel controller and theres your cheap boost


to do it properly, i would suggest a full gen4 build, the gte head would be better for boost, but since you want the vvti and the red covers (yeah why not its cool) then yeah, do a beams head rebuild. standalone ecu will give you an onboard map sensor to eliminate the AFM.

[ricochet1490]

The beams head flows better than a gen 3. And I've been reading most everything I can on the.beams owners group forum, and it seems like those who've done it had a stand alone ecu. Although, their power goals were more substantial than mine

Protok in that forum I believe it was did a turbo build on stock internals and ran 10 to 14 psi. I don't want to go cheap.... I want it done right, but just modest boost values naturally means less $

[Syaoran]

First thing you have to consider is the chance of detonation from running boost on a high compression engine. It's going to be much higher than an N/A, 9.5:1 engine like the 5s-fe.

Once you've made yourself aware of that, you should check to see if what you want is really that. Unless you plan on running 93 octane along with water/meth injection, I wouldn't boost it, not even with a supercharger, since you are so concerned with longevity.

I'd try to find more info about pistons, see if you can find a set with at least a 9.5:1 compression ratio or lower. I don't know of 3sgte pistons are compatible with the Beams head.

Turbo is going to be the easiest way to do it. You can run a piggy back, and change the MAF configuration to a pull-through system, where the MAF is located on the turbo intake rather than the cold pipe. EMS is the best option of course but it's much more expensive and since you're aiming for moderate, then your tuning solution should follow suit as well, it all depends on how the stock ECU behaves. With a piggy back you can also keep the VVT-i, which, believe me, will make a TON of difference in total horsepower.

The Beams is a rev-happy engine so you could choose to go big turbo for big power, or smaller turbo for drivability. I wouldn't be afraid to put a GT35R on there with a 7000+RPM redline...

Some quick thoughts/suggestions for you.

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Jul 6, 2012 - 11:08 AM

[ricochet1490]

I want to keep the good qualities of the beams if possible. Those qualities are the 11:1 cr and the vvti for me. I still want it to feel like a beams when I'm not in boost.
The new eco boost engine from ford that's in the f150 is twin turbo charged at 10:1....knowing that,.there is no reason why I couldn't low boost at 10 or 10.5 to 1 with proper tuning. I'd be willing to spend extra on a piggy back with a really good tune to keep the high cr...
And this car would only ever get premium.... Or else it would explode lol

Thinking about the turbo vs sc.... The turbo would be cheaper, but protok on the beams forum said when the turbo kicked in right about the same time as the vvti, it made a ton of power, but really hurt drivability.
If I could score a supercharger from an old buick regal and make that work.... Lol


Thanks for the input so far guys. Huge help.
?
So what would you recommend as a good piggy back for this application assuming the stock ecu can't do what I want

[Syaoran]

I want to keep the good qualities of the beams if possible. Those qualities are the 11:1 cr and the vvti for me. I still want it to feel like a beams when I'm not in boost.
The new eco boost engine from ford that's in the f150 is twin turbo charged at 10:1....knowing that,.there is no reason why I couldn't low boost at 10 or 10.5 to 1 with proper tuning. I'd be willing to spend extra on a piggy back with a really good tune to keep the high cr...
And this car would only ever get premium.... Or else it would explode lol

Thinking about the turbo vs sc.... The turbo would be cheaper, but protok on the beams forum said when the turbo kicked in right about the same time as the vvti, it made a ton of power, but really hurt drivability.
If I could score a supercharger from an old buick regal and make that work.... Lol


Thanks for the input so far guys. Huge help.
?
So what would you recommend as a good piggy back for this application assuming the stock ecu can't do what I want

The stock ECU definitely won't do what you want, that's for sure. Either way, there is no way I would personally run boost on the stock system in any car that didn't come boosted from the factory.

Yes, you can run boost on high-compression engines. It's been done before many many times. It's really sensitive and dangerous to do it, however, and I wouldn't do it on an otherwise stock, high-compression engine; that goes for both turbo and superchargers.

Again, take the idea out of your mind that you won't need at least a decent piggyback. Something like an AEM FIC or a GReddy Ultimate would be your best bet. Most seem to be happy using the GReddy unit on Celica ECUs, and you can get a decent tune from it, while keeping VVT-i working like it should as well.

I don't know what you know about ECUs but the only option that will mess up your VVT-i is going standalone. Piggybacks use the stock ECU for everything except open loop tuning.


"The turbo" kicks in at different RPMs, it all depends on what size turbo you run. Considering that the engine is a high-compression engine, I wouldn't run anything bigger than a GT28RS, and even that I think it's too big. You can spool up a small turbo at 2500 RPMs, or a bigger one at 4400 RPMs, it all depends on tune, size and type of turbo you're using.

Turbo will always be better than supercharger in the sense that it is not a drag to the engine, it doesn't take power to make power. It reuses otherwise wasted energy to make even more power, so turbo is a much better option.

The F150 has a crap ton of sensors and ECU settings that will protect the engine to its best ability from destroying itself, which is something you do not have. It's tuned to have 2 turbos on there, unlike your car which is tuned to have no turbo. You have to be very careful with a custom turbo setup on a n/a high-compression engine...

It's usually best to lower compression for the fact that the power and torque that you lost from going from 11:1 to 9:1 is minimal compared to the power and torque you will gain from boosting 20psi. The main advantage of your engine is not the compression, it's the headflow. Beams head flows really well, even better than the 3sgte head, so you'll probably make more power with the same mods as a comparable 3sgte.

[ricochet1490]

So check mark on the piggyback. Got it.
Now it should be re noted that 5 to 10 psi is all I'm looking for. Twenty will never happen. Not even 15 I can promise you.
as far as internals are concerned, I was under the impression that the beams and the 4thgen 3sgte had the same rods. Now I could be mistaken, and I know the 4th gen rods are known to be weak, but if they are the same, that would mean at least that part of the engine was designed for boost.

Now with such a low boost number, does a guy even need some form of charge cooling like an fmic?

[Syaoran]

So check mark on the piggyback. Got it.
Now it should be re noted that 5 to 10 psi is all I'm looking for. Twenty will never happen. Not even 15 I can promise you.
as far as internals are concerned, I was under the impression that the beams and the 4thgen 3sgte had the same rods. Now I could be mistaken, and I know the 4th gen rods are known to be weak, but if they are the same, that would mean at least that part of the engine was designed for boost.

Now with such a low boost number, does a guy even need some form of charge cooling like an fmic?

In a high compression setup you need that air to be as cold as you can get it to be... otherwise knock will kill your engine.

So yes, you need an fmic. If the rods are the same as the 4th gen rods, I'd look into upgrading them before boosting.

[delusionz]

Yeah forget the high compression, even a stock gen3 3sgte will give you more low end torque than the 3sge beams

[ricochet1490]

As per toyo diy, the caldina turbo and the beams have some of the same part numbers for the connecting rods. So that is validated.
Some reading for those who are interested

Thoughts on Beams turbo set up http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...y-good-bad.html

The longest build thread in history, beams supercharged http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...percharger.html

Then there is this recently posted thread http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...bo-project.html

[Syaoran]

I insist, what you want from the beams isn't the high-compression setup, it's the cylinder head.

Superchargers will only get you so much, and high compression boost is just asking for unnecessary problems. I'd do a low-compression, medium-boost build with forged Rods & Pistons... If your engine is in good condition you could literally just drop them into the crank and be done with it.

[richee3]

Nobody is arguing that the 3S-GTE is better than the BEAMS in terms of power or boost in general. There's no argument that low compression is better than high compression for boosting. Trace is merely seeking knowledge for improving an already good engine, raising the ~175 whp to ~200 whp while retaining the feel of the BEAMS. Is that the gist of it, Trace?

Off topic: BEAMS head on a 3S-GTE block is FTW.

[ricochet1490]

Dan you pretty much pegged it. Lol thanks buddy

[Smaay]

you guys and your Boners for BEAMS. Im still not impressed with a BEAMS. but thats just my opinion.

now ill throw my 2 cents in. 1ZZ-FE rods are toothpicks and they can support 300HP so i wouldnt worry about the rods. id worry more about the pistons. we have been boosting 2ZZ-GE engines for a long time now and as long as yoru tune is good, you will be fine at 7-10 psi. but that all depends on the turbo. a GT28RS, yes. A GT35R NO! you are not even in the efficiency range of the 35R at that low a boost. and its way too much air. Remeber its not about boost, its about CFM.

[ricochet1490]

Smaay,
Thanks for the rod insight....

I almost don't want to ask your opinion on the matter lol
But what about CR?
Is that why you're worried about the pistons

This post has been edited by ricochet1490: Jul 6, 2012 - 7:47 PM

[Syaoran]

There's no argument that low compression is better than high compression for boosting. Trace is merely seeking knowledge for improving an already good engine, raising the ~175 whp to ~200 whp while retaining the feel of the BEAMS.

Well if that's the case a 50 shot of nitrous should do it!

[ricochet1490]

So I learned today... to help answer some questions, that 3sgte pistons can be fitted to the Beams, but the compression ratio will increase to something about 11.2:1
Just soem food for thought.

Also on the order of 300hp... if the rods are good until then, and you can tune it right.... you get my drift.

[Neon90424]

I thought caldina rods were made of cheese... Seems like a fun proyect but I would go with aft mkt ecu and e85 with that CR

[ricochet1490]

the trouble for me has been finding either an after market ecu or a god piggy back and someone to tune the dang thing. The closest I've come is 4 hours from my house and they don't even do toyota..... they're all about audi, porche, VW, etc.... #frustrated