True about GT86... Options

[malpaso]

At last I had chance to test GT86.... Car I hate . I hate it for 200HP and even more for 205 Nm of torque. Also I hate Toyota for their price policy. They sell it here in Europe for $39,000 (base price!!! should be $44,000 for top version) but with the same power as Scion FR-S that is for sale for $23,100 (base price) in the US.

Anyway back to the point. Back to my experience from the last weekend. Now you know I do not like that car so really wanted to see it fall in my eyes . Fortunately I had chance to:

- see drag race between GT86 and Celica GT-S (T23 Sport)
- drive GT86
- "drift" GT86 (drift means to loose grip when cornering for me . I'm not any drifter...)
- talk to other GT, ST Celica drivers and ask about opinion...

...to make as much as unbiased conclusion about GT86.

First what "numbers say". When taking curb weight, power (or torque) and loss between engine and the ground (that is important) for all models of Celica (T20, T23 - all European versions) and GT86, than just converting to percentage value (to easily compare it) you receive some interesting answers. Lets say GT86 is "standard" (100% value) than:

6gen
ST = power 58%, torque 76%
GT = power 80%, torque 85%
GT-Four = power 86%**, torque 103%*
7gen
GT = power 78%, torque 91%**
GT-S = power 94%*, torque 87%

*highest value
**second highest value

From you see above theory say GT-S has no chance to win drag race with GT86 (lower torque means lower ability to start fast enough and almost the same power gives zero chance to catch what GT-S loose with slower acceleration). And reality is exactly as numbers say. I have seen two drag races between GT-S and GT86. Both won by GT86.

Also numbers can help to guess what was experience of other drivers and why in fact just GT-S drivers accepted challenge to race GT86. ST owners were all impressed with GT86. To have suddenly for 40% more power and 25% more torque than they are used to have (especially on rear wheels) knocked them down all . Also GT drivers were not disappointed at all. You can feel those +20% from first moment. No question about this. Also this is reason no one of those wanted to drag race it (there was no point for this).

Numbers also say only at least competitors for GT86 were:

7gen. GT = just slightly lower torque so in case track is short enough and GT86 mess up take off 7gen GT can win. Unfortunately no one tried his luck.
7gen. GT-S = slightly less power in combination with long enough track ...and GT86's messed up take off also gave some chances to win. As I saw not happened. GT86 in both races lead from take off to finish.
6gen. GT-Four = unfortunately none was available around. Any stock GT-Four has higher torque so should lead from the start for 100%. On too long track may loose in the end (thanks to weight and too high loss between engine and wheels). But you never know till you see .

NOTE: Some people may say now: "you were there! You have GT-four so you could race GT86!" No, no... all wrong. I have SS-Four... so I could not . OK, no silly excuses now. Racing with GT86 was pointless with my car. It would be like grizzly bear fighting with raccoon bear. Just to compare above percentage values is my car against GT86: power 128%, torque 159%. That means 30% more power on wheels and for 60% better acceleration than GT86. It would be just about me showing off there...

To driving/"drifting" impressions. Since my feelings are "calibrated" to my car result was exactly what I expected. Not enough power, pitiful torque. Take off is effective (when your ass shakes with behind spinning rear wheels it is always effective ). When trying accelerate from 50mph to 70mph it took ages. It is - no kidding - horrible. Any diesel powered van can accelerate faster! But when cornering (and not controlled by electronic) you can feel the edge when car is sliding and when knot. The most fun is balancing on this edge just by gently playing with gas pedal. You do not need more. Just one leg and smile . Handling of this car is stunning. GT-Four just grips and holding the line. No fun. GT86 is different.

Now I need to slightly re-evaluate my opinion about GT86. I do not hate it as a car anymore (or lets say not that much as before). But but I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

End of story .

[95CelicaST]

base price over here is higher than $23,100... FYI.


$24,200 is base, but you have to pay $755 for delivery, processing, and handling.

$24,955.. or just round off that $45 for a tank of gas and say it costs $25,000. Still considerably cheaper here


and yes, the lack of power is not very awe inspiring. That is why you should keep the Celica, so when you want power you can drive it instead!

[CelicaZR]

Now I need to slightly re-evaluate my opinion about GT86. I do not hate it as a car anymore (or lets say not that much as before). But but I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

End of story .

Malpaso we are paying
starting from 35K for the GT spec here
and 40K for the GTS spec

Aus 86 pricing

on top of that the waiting list here is rediculous (18 months wait for the GTS)

You cant really compare pricing between countries, different taxes, laws, rego etc..
Also I think the US is a big market so there is more margin.
Yes, i wish we had pricing like the US too..
Drove the car and Love it.. will get one when the facelift come out

[chucho]

Now I need to slightly re-evaluate my opinion about GT86. I do not hate it as a car anymore (or lets say not that much as before). But but I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

End of story .

Malpaso we are paying
starting from 35K for the GT spec here
and 40K for the GTS spec

Aus 86 pricing

on top of that the waiting list here is rediculous (18 months wait for the GTS)

You cant really compare pricing between countries, different taxes, laws, rego etc..
Also I think the US is a big market so there is more margin.
Yes, i wish we had pricing like the US too..
Drove the car and Love it.. will get one when the facelift come out

I wish we had cars w/ name like Rukus over here.... I would have to buy it on the name alone.

[lagos]

I'll buy one used in a few years and do an STI swap.

[njccmd2002]

yes the car is underpowered, it sucks, but its fun to drive in corners.

nothing a little tuning and options can do.

the celica is also underpowered, but everyone figured out how to turbo the original engine.

i would have expected more, but for 25k//

its a shame you guys pay more in europe and rest of the world.

[azian_advanced]

great review. i've always wanted to know how the gt86 compares to our 6th gens.
hopefully toyota/subaru gets all the bugs sorted out by next year.

[malpaso]

base price over here is higher than $23,100... FYI.

$24,200 is base, but you have to pay $755 for delivery, processing, and handling.
$24,955.. or just round off that $45 for a tank of gas and say it costs $25,000. Still considerably cheaper here

and yes, the lack of power is not very awe inspiring. That is why you should keep the Celica, so when you want power you can drive it instead!

Thanks for correction. I just took first price I found on the web. Still 25k is GREAT price for this power range. But do not get me wrong. No one plan to sell Celica here . But what I can say for sure is:

If I lived in USA and drove any stock Celica I would buy Scion FR-S for sure.

Because agree with njccmd2002 to the letter...

....
i would have expected more, but for 25k//
...

Thanks to RWD it is really fun to drive it and for any ST/GT Celica owner is more power as well. Anyway in Europe there is (IMO) no sense buying it. For example. Do you believe even Mercedes A250 AMG sport is cheaper here than GT86? (UK price is about the same: A250AMG vs GT86). And of course that AMG has more power than GT86... A250 AMG has torque 350Nm. 350! That is for 50 Nm more than stock GT-four... Yes it is FWD so forget about fun but for $40K I expect more than "just fun when cornering".

Malpaso we are paying
starting from 35K for the GT spec here
and 40K for the GTS spec

Aus 86 pricing

on top of that the waiting list here is rediculous (18 months wait for the GTS)

You cant really compare pricing between countries, different taxes, laws, rego etc..
Also I think the US is a big market so there is more margin.
Yes, i wish we had pricing like the US too..
Drove the car and Love it.. will get one when the facelift come out

Wow... mate that is insane. That is even worse than in here. You know... If I wanted to buy GT86 I shout take one the same day I tested it. There were three GT86, two for test rides and one immediately for sale for potential buyer.

From price-list I see there is also weigh gain for that GTS (+70kg!!!). Thanks to this I can change numbers...

6gen
ST = power 62%, torque 80%
GT = power 85%, torque 91%
GT-Four = power 91%**, torque 109%*
7gen
GT = power 83%, torque 97%**
GT-S = power 100%*, torque 92%

*highest value
**second highest value

As you see weight is only advantage of this car any fancy equipment (big stereo for example) just devalue it. That is very interesting.

Just for your info I have added aslo link to CZ pricing... it is in CZ (sorry). In short you can find there: (exchange rate is about 20 Kč = 1 USD)

base price:
799 900 Kč for M/T
839 900 Kč for A/T

optional equipment:
30 000 Kč - premium audio
15 000 Kč - sat nav
15 000 Kč - metallic paint
22 500 Kč - pearl paint
8 000 Kč - silicon paint protection layer
14 900 Kč - warranty longer +3 years
5 000 Kč - Paket Race 1 (vinyl stripes bonnet+roof)
2 500 Kč - Paket Race 2 (vinyl stripes sides)
etc... (there are more like "parking assistant", "mud guards" etc... all for additional hundreds of dollars http://www.toyota.cz/cars/new_cars/gt86/index.tmex )

So you can see I'm to kind when saying the price is "just" 39-44k USD in CZ (because when exchange rate drops from 20CZK per 1USD to 19CZK top price with all additional fancy stuff bought can be 50k. No problem).

This post has been edited by malpaso: Sep 25, 2012 - 5:38 AM

[doGGy]

I bought it. BOUGHT IT IN USA - and imported over here. and i LOVE it. Love it 10x more then ANY GT-Four. As i said before GT-Four is a boat... boat on water... As FRS is a jetski. Period. GT-four is OK for power - but if we are talking about GT-four - then i would take any GC chasis STi over GT-four ANYTIME.

You can NOT compare GT86 / FRS / BRZ to a GT-four - thats a differnet league car.

Price? well - in EU it is overpriced... but as i imported it from USA - saved round 8K$ So its all good till issues with the Warranty stuff will pop up...

Also - you should not that Base prices starts at 24xxx + TAX! So you get round 27K easily...

And its not even NEAR 7 gen celica... sorry - but 7Gen doesnt even deserve to be called celica IMHO...

[richee3]

And its not even NEAR 7 gen celica... sorry - but 7Gen doesnt even deserve to be called celica IMHO...

I agree with this. I feel more like it was a first gen Scion tC.

Very interesting to hear the comparison between the FR-S and GT-Four, and more interesting up hear that there is no comparison.

[Box]

Why? 7GC still weighed 2,400-2,500 depending on GT or GT-S. TC weighed in at 2,900 with less power than the GT-S. 7GC is a lot closer to the 6GC than it is the TC.

[95CelicaST]

tC to me seems like a 2-door Camry.

[Box]

tC to me seems like a 2-door Camry.

tC just needs to go on a diet and lose about 600 pounds.

[malpaso]

I bought it. BOUGHT IT IN USA - and imported over here. and i LOVE it. Love it 10x more then ANY GT-Four. As i said before GT-Four is a boat... boat on water... As FRS is a jetski. Period. GT-four is OK for power - but if we are talking about GT-four - then i would take any GC chasis STi over GT-four ANYTIME.

You can NOT compare GT86 / FRS / BRZ to a GT-four - thats a differnet league car.

Price? well - in EU it is overpriced... but as i imported it from USA - saved round 8K$ So its all good till issues with the Warranty stuff will pop up...

Also - you should not that Base prices starts at 24xxx + TAX! So you get round 27K easily...

And its not even NEAR 7 gen celica... sorry - but 7Gen doesnt even deserve to be called celica IMHO...

First. Unfortunately Lithuania is not Czech Republic mate. You know how much issues I had registering my car. You say I can not compare GT-four and GT86? I say you can not compare importing a car to LT and to CZ. It is different story.

In terms of my experience... I simply compared NUMBERS based on weight, power, torque and loss between engine and ground. I compare it because comparing DRAG RACE! Not drift race, not circuit, not handling, nothing else. Just ability to drive straight and accelerate (the same way I can compare how fast will brick and metal cube fall to the grown from roof). And since I tried both cars in same situations I really can say how I feel driving it. GT86 is desperately slow car and for price sold in CZ not worth having it. And since I have GT-four... I believe "YES, I can". I can compare GT86 with GT-four as user and say:

I would NEVER swap my car for GT86 (even for half price) but definitely bought its Scion clone if I lived in the US (AT200 & ST204 country) because remember how AT200 feels on road. GT86 has more power than US ST/GT, it is more fun to drive and price is fair enough there. That is only message I wanted to share.

note: In terms of 7gen... anyone knows my opinion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBdyf-5nOsQ (but it is not the point)

[Box]

Not fair to compare old and new though, really. LOTS of used cars over here in the U.S. for under $25,000 that'll blow the doors off the FR-S in a straight line. Really should be compared to its contemporaries.

[malpaso]

Not fair to compare old and new though, really. LOTS of used cars over here in the U.S. for under $25,000 that'll blow the doors off the FR-S in a straight line. Really should be compared to its contemporaries.

I believe that. There are tons of better, faster and more pretty cars than GT86. And what? Reason why used this comparison are two:

a) Everyone expected when concept launched few years ago we are looking at 8gen Celica. Some people still have feeling they must comparing it with 7gen Celicas (like "is it better than last Toyota's sports car?").
b) We are 6gen Celica forum members = this comparison is relevant for us as for Celica drivers and 6gc enthusiasts (because simply we all are driving Celicas so we know how it feels on the road). I do not care how it is in comparison with Camaro or Mustang.

Can you accept fact I do not make any review of GT86? I just wanted to know if it could suit me better than my current car. I found CLEAR answer. It can not (and can not form any point of view or perspective). Also tried to describe why to make it clear for every AT200/ST204/ST202 driver here that had no chance to compare yet. Your opinion is up to you. You like the GT86 (or it's other clones)? Fine. You love it because of RWD? Great! You enjoy racing or drifting? Good for you... Still I already found my answers. You do not agree with them? That is not my problem...

I hope you (and Romas) got the point what I mean.

[Box]

I was just saying though, and I get what you're saying. I know if it were me having $25,000 to spend on a car, it sure as Hell wouldn't be the FR-S. I don't know why people are comparing it to the Celica, Celica hasn't been RWD in most of those people's lifetimes...

[njccmd2002]

i can only say this...

drive the scion frs and then talk about it, if you still dont like it after a drive, then ok.

RWD is fun. but its fun light weight. a 400whp 3 ton monster, its not fun, its just loud and heavy...

lol. I will never regret buying the frs. its not fast, its not luxurious, but it is freaking fun to drive.

[Box]

What car is three tons? Even the heaviest of the muscle cars are under 2 metric tons. Will have to disagree with you, just depends on what you find fun. Each are fun in their own way. I'd have a FR-S for its handling and then something that kicks up pavement when you floor it, just depends on the mood at the moment.

[doGGy]

Martin - if you spent week driving GT86 - we could talk then - and you COULD compare cars by then... But after few Km's - its crazy a bit to give opinion.... And if you are only driving in straight line - then you need a dragster then....

I felt in love with this car round after 500miles... First 200 was like hmmm whats so special about it? But later on - you find all the small details about driving, steering, drifting - and theres more then enouth of power to get you from point A to B with enouth of fun and smile.

Later this week - we will have BRZ drive on our local track with profesional driver. it will be REALLY nice to compare time of it to GT-Four and SSIII (Martynas car with ~300hp and Vidmantas SSIII) and see how much difference will be...