Is my tranny or differential broke? Options

[HardHead93]

The car has been leaking gear oil. I thought it was an axle seal so I took it to my local shop because they installed the original seal and would warranty it. Come to find out it is not the seal. The axle has some serious in and out play in it. When it moves out gear oil leaks out. The shop has tried 2 other brand new axles and the problem is the same. The last axle would not click and lock in. I have a helical LSD in an S54 transmission and I am running a Gen 4 3sgte tuned for 340 hp on E85. I track the car so it gets beat on pretty hard. The shop is having a hard time getting a good part number because the original part number is discontinued but superseded by another. One axle came from OReilly's and the other came from AutoZone. Is the tranny or the differential broke or am I not getting the right axle? Has anyone else had this problem?

[slavie]

Can you quantify "serious in and out play"? Also, I'm assuming we're talking driver's side axle since you mentioned the snap ring which is not present in the pas side axle.

Some in and out play is normal as there's some slop in the snap ring securing mechanism. Maybe about 1/8 of an inch.

With aftermarket axles, you MUST install a new seal with a new axle. OEM seal is much preferred - I've had aftermarket seals leak within weeks of installation. As you may have heard, quality control on aftermarket garbage is non-existent, and sometimes the shaft is slightly undersized. A new seal will wear to the shaft, if you will, and seal. If you then take a new, random-sized shaft, and the old seal that was previously working on a different sized shaft, you get a pretty massive oil leak - you'd be surprised just how much oil can leak past. We're talking puddles, not just stains under the car. Ask me how I know.

The fact that a third axle would not even snap in does not surprise me either. I've had aftermarket axles where the snap ring it would seem was bent out of some standard wire not treated in any way with no spring to it, and that garbage will deform and not go in when you try to insert it. I've had to remove original springy snap rings and put them onto brand new aftermarket axles.

TL;DR: Aftermarket garbage is the root of all evil and belongs in the garbage.

[Box]

^That. My brother had issues with his Maxima and more recently his Audi with CV axles and seals. Honestly I'd find a good used o.e. axle and refurbish it if possible, and use a new o.e. seal. That or use this as an excuse for custom higher strength axles.

[Bitter]

I want to say the manual and auto use a different axle and that the length of the part that inserts into the trans is the difference, with one being longer or shorter than the other. I'm assuming it's the driver side because they're the same auto or manual on the right side it seems.
Automatic
https://www.rockauto.com/info/570/TO-8145__ra_p.jpg

Manual
https://www.rockauto.com/info/570/TO-8106__ra_p.jpg

What often happens is that cores aren't sorted/boxed right when they go back for refurb so you'll get parts randomly boxed wrong that way. Might be worth checking inside the diff with a flashlight to make sure nothing has gone wrong, how did the old axle that came out look? Is there excessive up down play in the bushing the axle rides on?

This post has been edited by Bitter: Apr 25, 2019 - 7:59 PM

[HardHead93]

Can you quantify "serious in and out play"? Also, I'm assuming we're talking driver's side axle since you mentioned the snap ring which is not present in the pas side axle.

Some in and out play is normal as there's some slop in the snap ring securing mechanism. Maybe about 1/8 of an inch.

With aftermarket axles, you MUST install a new seal with a new axle. OEM seal is much preferred - I've had aftermarket seals leak within weeks of installation. As you may have heard, quality control on aftermarket garbage is non-existent, and sometimes the shaft is slightly undersized. A new seal will wear to the shaft, if you will, and seal. If you then take a new, random-sized shaft, and the old seal that was previously working on a different sized shaft, you get a pretty massive oil leak - you'd be surprised just how much oil can leak past. We're talking puddles, not just stains under the car. Ask me how I know.

The fact that a third axle would not even snap in does not surprise me either. I've had aftermarket axles where the snap ring it would seem was bent out of some standard wire not treated in any way with no spring to it, and that garbage will deform and not go in when you try to insert it. I've had to remove original springy snap rings and put them onto brand new aftermarket axles.

TL;DR: Aftermarket garbage is the root of all evil and belongs in the garbage.

As far as shaft play I would say it is around 1/8 - 1/4" in and out play. The seal does not leak when it is on but leaks a bunch when it is out. I wish I would have taken a picture but yes the snap ring looks like a bent piece of wire. The mechanic was able to widen it with some pliers. The axle never unsnaps just has a lot of play. After all your guys input I think the snap ring is too thin and is cheap garbage.

I want to say the manual and auto use a different axle and that the length of the part that inserts into the trans is the difference, with one being longer or shorter than the other. I'm assuming it's the driver side because they're the same auto or manual on the right side it seems.
Automatic
https://www.rockauto.com/info/570/TO-8145__ra_p.jpg

Manual
https://www.rockauto.com/info/570/TO-8106__ra_p.jpg

What often happens is that cores aren't sorted/boxed right when they go back for refurb so you'll get parts randomly boxed wrong that way. Might be worth checking inside the diff with a flashlight to make sure nothing has gone wrong, how did the old axle that came out look? Is there excessive up down play in the bushing the axle rides on?

When I look at your picture of your axle, I see one major difference from mine, it does not have the dust shield over the axle seal. Every OEM picture I see of an axle has that dust shield. I wonder if they went to some cheap replica because like I said earlier, the part number been superseded by a different one.

^That. My brother had issues with his Maxima and more recently his Audi with CV axles and seals. Honestly I'd find a good used o.e. axle and refurbish it if possible, and use a new o.e. seal. That or use this as an excuse for custom higher strength axles.

I order an OEM seal. What do you mean my custom high strength axles?

[Box]

There're various manufacturers of custom CV axles, there used to be one that everyone here used for when they did 3S-GTE swaps but it's eluding me at the moment. That and I think the E153 swap mandates at least one custom axle. The custom axles can withstand more power without breaking if made to be so, though there's the argument that leaving the axles as the weak link can spare the gearbox and then you just have to replace axles. Generally the axles are made of a chromoly steel and/or thicker than stock, more extreme performance variants even beef up the joints and splines. Though if you're not snapping them you should be fine with stock, just need to get one that's right or maybe just a better snap ring for the one you have.

[HardHead93]

I just heard back from the mechanic and he had a transmission specialist look at it. He said that there is over 1/2 inch of in and out play. The specialist thinks that there is a problem with the final drive (LSD) that is installed in the tranny. I guess I am getting a used S54 to drop in. Ugh!

[Box]

Sigh, that blows. If it's just the carrier though why a whole other transmission and not just get a new carrier?

[HardHead93]

Sigh, that blows. If it's just the carrier though why a whole other transmission and not just get a new carrier?

What do you mean by carrier? Isn’t everything that the axle snaps into, inside the transmission?

[Bitter]

Sigh, that blows. If it's just the carrier though why a whole other transmission and not just get a new carrier?

What do you mean by carrier? Isn’t everything that the axle snaps into, inside the transmission?

It is but they're all parts inside, as long as the case halves aren't boned you can split it and fix it usually.

[HardHead93]

Sigh, that blows. If it's just the carrier though why a whole other transmission and not just get a new carrier?

What do you mean by carrier? Isn’t everything that the axle snaps into, inside the transmission?

It is but they're all parts inside, as long as the case halves aren't boned you can split it and fix it usually.

True, the problem is that I took it to my mechanic to give it a once over so I could sell this car. I was expecting it to only be an axle seal. Not this issue. I scored a transmission out of a 93 Toyota Camry (S51) for $200. So I plan to swap that in next weekend.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Apr 26, 2019 - 7:29 PM

[Box]

The carrier is what the ring gear attaches to and is the bulk of what makes up the differential.

[slavie]

Keep in mind that the Camry box has different (taller) gears and final drive. The car will accelerate a tad slower, and your highway RPM will be lower.

If you're committed to replacing the gearbox, I may be interested in your old one with the LSD. If the price is right, I'll take a chance at repairing it. Let me know...

[HardHead93]

Keep in mind that the Camry box has different (taller) gears and final drive. The car will accelerate a tad slower, and your highway RPM will be lower.

If you're committed to replacing the gearbox, I may be interested in your old one with the LSD. If the price is right, I'll take a chance at repairing it. Let me know...

I will think about it. I was planning to include the tranny as a spare with the car when I sell it. I will be swapping the transmissions next weekend. I am trying to not be the idiot who wants good money for his car but it is broken. As far as the longer gearing, I wish I would have looked into this sooner. The s54 has me shifting through the first 3 gears a lot plus revs close to 4000 rpm in 5th gear on the freeway.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: Apr 27, 2019 - 11:08 AM

[HardHead93]

Does the clutch disk from a S54 transmission work in a S51 or S53? I might as well put a new clutch on the car since I am dropping the tranny.

[mkernz22]

Does the clutch disk from a S54 transmission work in a S51 or S53? I might as well put a new clutch on the car since I am dropping the tranny.

It should work just fine

[slavie]

Does the clutch disk from a S54 transmission work in a S51 or S53? I might as well put a new clutch on the car since I am dropping the tranny.

The gearboxes are identical aside from the gear ratios inside.

Also, take a look at the speedo sensor - it may have been cable driven still in 93, so you would have to swap the electronic one from your old gear box. They can be a royal PITA to get out if things are rusty, so be careful. I've broken one or two taking them out back when I was yonder and un-wiser.

[HardHead93]

It looks like this tranny has the electronic speed sensor so that is nice. I am not sure if the Camry it came out of was a 93. It could have been a 96. The Camry on the bottom is the one it came out of.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/259TLCp]

Here are the picture of it when I got it home.


[url=https://flic.kr/p/2fLtXL6]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/259TCLH]

Here is a shot after I power washed it and moved it into the garage.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2fLtXpp][url=https://flic.kr/p/2fLtXpp]

This was a good deal for $200. I will be swapping it into the Celica tomorrow.

This post has been edited by HardHead93: May 2, 2019 - 8:55 PM

[Box]

Hard to argue with $200 for a transmission that works.

[HardHead93]

I am pretty excited about the gear ratios.

The S54 has the following ratios:
First Gear: 3.285
Second Gear: 1.960
Third Gear: 1.322
Fourth Gear: 1.028
Fifth Gear: 0.820
Reverse Gear: 3.153
Final Drive: 4.176

The S51 has the following ratios:
First Gear: 3.538:1
Second Gear: 1.960:1
Third Gear: 1.250:1
Fourth Gear: 0.945:1
Fifth Gear: 0.731:1
Reverse Gear: 3.153:1
Final Drive: 3.944:1

The S54 at 4000 rpm in 4th gear hits 69 mph while the S51 hits 80 mph. In 5th gear at 3500 rpm the S54 hits 76 mph while the S51 hits 90 mph. This means that the car will not rev high and drone cruising on the highway. Also, the car will have a higher top speed and since it is an aftermarket ECU, there is no governor. The other nice thing about this transmission is the first 2 gears on both transmissions act the same and 3rd gear is a tad bit longer on the S51 so acceleration will not be too affected. The car is riding on 17" x 8" rims with 225/45r17 tires. That makes the tire diameter 25" wide. I used that tire diameter to calculate speed. I used the calculator on this website: http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/gear_ratios.shtml

This post has been edited by HardHead93: May 2, 2019 - 10:04 PM

[slavie]

It'll still accelerate slower because the final drive on the S51 is also longer. But, if the car we're talking about is the one with 3SGTE, then S51 is the better gearbox - the engine has more power (and higher redline, too, iirc), so you want the longer gears/final drive.

And yes, that's the electronic speed sensor - the 3 pin plug right above the pas side axle.

Back when I was still abusing my Camry, I actually made a hybrid gearbox with the shorter S54 1-5 gears and the longer 5th gear and final drive out of S51. It worked out pretty well - I had noticeably better acceleration in 1-4, and then the longer 5th gear for acceptable highway revs. The 5th gear synchro was not happy though as the differences in rpm b/w 4th and 5th gear was higher now. Had to shift slower into 5th or it would grind.

[HardHead93]

It'll still accelerate slower because the final drive on the S51 is also longer. But, if the car we're talking about is the one with 3SGTE, then S51 is the better gearbox - the engine has more power (and higher redline, too, iirc), so you want the longer gears/final drive.

And yes, that's the electronic speed sensor - the 3 pin plug right above the pas side axle.

Back when I was still abusing my Camry, I actually made a hybrid gearbox with the shorter S54 1-5 gears and the longer 5th gear and final drive out of S51. It worked out pretty well - I had noticeably better acceleration in 1-4, and then the longer 5th gear for acceptable highway revs. The 5th gear synchro was not happy though as the differences in rpm b/w 4th and 5th gear was higher now. Had to shift slower into 5th or it would grind.

That is good to know because this is a 3sgte Celica.

[HardHead93]

Bad news! The S51 tranny I got has broken hooks for the shifter cables.
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I can't believe I missed that when I picked it up. I call the salvage yard and they are willing to exchange it. It just sucks because I have to go back to El Paso, TX (1 hour each way) to get to the yard. I also pulled the S54 tranny from the car. It was not too bad, it only took 3 hours. It will probably take longer to put back in (taking apart is faster than putting it back together). I have the engine on a hanger inside the bay because only 1 of the 4 motor mounts stays attached when pulling the tranny.
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Here is my old clutch. It is a SPEC Stage 2 disk with an Exedy pressure plate. It held 340 hp to the wheels fine on e85. I also have a lightweight flywheel with this setup.
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This post has been edited by HardHead93: May 3, 2019 - 9:09 PM

[Box]

It's always something isn't it?

[HardHead93]

Let’s try this again. I found 2 S53 transmissions at the junkyard. I bought them both. I hope 1 of them works out.

[HardHead93]

Does the clutch disk from a S54 transmission work in a S51 or S53? I might as well put a new clutch on the car since I am dropping the tranny.

The gearboxes are identical aside from the gear ratios inside.

Also, take a look at the speedo sensor - it may have been cable driven still in 93, so you would have to swap the electronic one from your old gear box. They can be a royal PITA to get out if things are rusty, so be careful. I've broken one or two taking them out back when I was yonder and un-wiser.

These 2 S53 transmissions I got have the cable driven speed sensor. I wish these idiots at the junkyard wouldn't have broken that S51 when they pulled it from the car. I was really looking forward to the longer gear ratios. Also, it had an electronic speed sensor. I bought a cable to electric speed sensor adapter so I can just plug it in. The adapter is a Trail-Gear Speedometer Adapters 301447-1-KIT.

[Bitter]

That's repairable with some aluminum braze, if you really wanted to.

[HardHead93]

That's repairable with some aluminum braze, if you really wanted to.

I would have done that if I had the pieces that broke off. The junk yard had yanked the tranny before I got there.

[HardHead93]

Here are the 2 S53 transmissions I got off 1990 Celicas. I plan to use the one on the left because it is cleaner and out of a lower mileage Celica. As you can see I have already put the electronic speed sensor in the tranny. I will be putting it into the Celica this weekend.

[url="https://flic.kr/p/2fLBjJf"]

This post has been edited by HardHead93: May 9, 2019 - 8:01 PM

[Box]

Wooo, hopefully it goes well this time.

[cheela]

dang! 3 transmissions to do one fix. that sucks but hopefully this will be it and you can have it in and running again soon.

[Smaay]

yeah a good fabricator can fix those broken brackets, if you have the pieces. good luck!

[HardHead93]

yeah a good fabricator can fix those broken brackets, if you have the pieces. good luck!

That’s the problem, they lost the pieces.