Tuners, If you knew then, what you know now.... Options

[jgreening]

I have always meant to start this thread for the benefit of others considering modifications (particularly engine modifications and swaps). My question is really for the people who have engaged in fairly serious modifications. Perhaps we can help others learn from our mistakes. So, here it is: Based on your experience and current knowledge, what would you do differently if you were starting all over with your 6gc project.

I will start.

I would have bought a ST205 front clip, kept it stock except for intake, boost controller and exhaust and sold the ST205 tranny for big $ to the alltrac guys. The fact is that 250whp is all you really need (and can usefully use) in a FWD setup. The newer engine, better turbo, and intercooler are a real plus.

I would have then switched the GT4 front end over and had the whole car professionally painted.

I would have bought Greddy guages rather than Autometer.

I would have gone immediately to Tein SS coilovers instead of springs and new struts and would have skipped my sway bars (due to all the rubbing problems I have had).

I would have bought 8" wide 16" TE37's so I could run 245/45/16 tires.

If I had done that, I would have spent less than I have and had a better (although similar) car.

[purplegt4]

would have skipped my sway bars (due to all the rubbing problems I have had).

or get the newer design.

[jgreening]

would have skipped my sway bars (due to all the rubbing problems I have had).

or get the newer design.

I have the first set of the newer design and guess what? I am still having problems although now only on offramps at speed. I am 80% sure its the sway bar.

[Kadett]

Very funny. This forum already helped me then. Every point (exept the 16 inch rims) is accounted for here Teins will come end of summer.

[jgreening]

Very funny. This forum already helped me then. Every point (exept the 16 inch rims) is accounted for here Teins will come end of summer.

You are on your way to an intelligent build, my friend.

Oh, and the 16's are not the real issue - that just helps you get a little wider sidewall for ride quality. You just need more than 215 wide to put down the power.

This post has been edited by jgreening: Mar 12, 2006 - 1:15 AM

[doGGy]

Instead of GOing 7AFTE - i would went 3S Swap way... Spend HUGE amount on 7AFTE setup - and only when i finished i realised what it wasnt worth in reality - but the knowledge level i got - was impressive..

[Coomer]

I would've done my 4A-GE swap by myself and gone with an ultra-light flywheel and an AT200 C52 instead of using the AE101 C52.

[burneeed]

should of went with a better tranny. After my swap I blew up 2 cheep s54 trannys. I now am swapping in an e153.

Another thing I should of done was a front mount. My top mount get so hot I could cook eggs off of it.

[lagos]

hmm good question .

i guess the st205 clip would have been a better way to go, but i tried to find one when i was doing my swap, and couldnt. so looking back, there was really no way to change that. its one of those things that you alwasy dream about the thing you dont have.

in reality, if i knew what i know now, i probably would start with a brand spankin new motor from somone like ATS and build everything up the way i want it. .... and taken full advantage of the free sanblaster that was in the shop i was swaping in, but too dumb to realize that maybe i should take off everything and clean it. ..lol


jay, if you knew what u know now, would you have tried to do the swap on your own?

This post has been edited by lagos: Mar 11, 2006 - 5:52 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I would have bought 8" wide 16" TE37's so I could run 245/45/16 tires.

I've always thought 16's were prefect for our cars. I don't know why more people don't run them. You think you could put the power down with an 8" tire? I would go for ten, but I don't know how that would affect streetability and gas milage.

[jgreening]

jay, if you knew what u know now, would you have tried to do the swap on your own?

No, I believe in the use of experts if you can afford them. I charge alot for what I do and do not mind paying others for other things. I have no desire to be a mechanic, although I totally respect and am thankful for the talent where I find it.

[Fastbird]

I would have bought Greddy guages rather than Autometer.

Just curious, but why the GReddy over the Autometer???

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

jay, if you knew what u know now, would you have tried to do the swap on your own?

No, I believe in the use of experts if you can afford them. I charge alot for what I do and do not mind paying others for other things. I have no desire to be a mechanic, although I totally respect and am thankful for the talent where I find it.

I really injoy working on my car, but I agree. If you can afford it, go with a professional. I wouldn't try a port job on my own. I want to hire someone to come into my house and install central cooling. I bet I could do it on my own, but I'd rather have a pro do it. Same with the swap, I bet I could do it on my own, but I would rather have an expert to do it. Although, I think I would have to be there while he or she was doing it. Got to learn all you can if you want to build the things I do.

[lagos]

I would have bought Greddy guages rather than Autometer.

Just curious, but why the GReddy over the Autometer???

greddy has a lot better build quality for not that much more money. a lot of people tend to have issues with their autometer gauges not reading correctly

[Defgeph]

I would have rebuilt my 7afe, made my car a very reliable daily driver.

Then I would have bought and AE86 and put my RC motor in there, or buy a blown foxbody mustang.

If i knew what I know now.

[Coomer]

I would have rebuilt my 7afe, made my car a very reliable daily driver.

Then I would have bought and AE86 and put my RC motor in there, or buy a blown foxbody mustang.

If i knew what I know now.

Just wishing you had that kind of power in a RWD chassis Jeff? I was surprised to read your post...I've heard nothing but good things about your car.

[brianforster]

I would have rebuilt my 7afe, made my car a very reliable daily driver.

Then I would have bought and AE86 and put my RC motor in there, or buy a blown foxbody mustang.

If i knew what I know now.

Just wishing you had that kind of power in a RWD chassis Jeff? I was surprised to read your post...I've heard nothing but good things about your car.

i agree its sad to hear a 3sgte guy regret something

[Defgeph]

Dont get me wrong the car is awesome.
But as I see it, its kinda pointless to go any further. Last year while launching, I couldnt give it all it had. I would need to baby the car in first gear. This car would be a perfect track car(road course), those tracks are very expensive to race on.

My car is almost at the point where the power becomes usless. So why would I want to upgrade further if I cant use the power ? From my experience a 3sgte would be much better in AWD or RWD for serious tuners. If you want to swap one in and keep it stock form, I would then recommend FWD.

[97sccelica]

I have said it before many times and i will say it again

get a damn fuel pump if you are turboing your stock engine

[lagos]

I would have rebuilt my 7afe, made my car a very reliable daily driver.

Then I would have bought and AE86 and put my RC motor in there, or buy a blown foxbody mustang.

If i knew what I know now.

BAN HIM !!!!!!!

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Dont get me wrong the car is awesome.
But as I see it, its kinda pointless to go any further. Last year while launching, I couldnt give it all it had. I would need to baby the car in first gear. This car would be a perfect track car(road course), those tracks are very expensive to race on.

My car is almost at the point where the power becomes usless. So why would I want to upgrade further if I cant use the power ? From my experience a 3sgte would be much better in AWD or RWD for serious tuners. If you want to swap one in and keep it stock form, I would then recommend FWD.

With so many people posting things like these, we all need to find out a better way of getting these cars to hook up. There has to be something with the suspension that we can do. If nothing else, you should put slicks on if your up the 250hp mark. I think the price of a swap should include the price of a set of slicks if you intend on taking the car to the drag strip.

[lagos]

i dont think its as big of a problem as jeff makes it out to be. its all in how you drive, what tires you have and where you boost is set at. its not like you are at a dead stop when your tires break loose, you are still moving fast. i can see it becoming a larger problem when u upgrade the turbo, but with a stock ct26 its not that bad.

the only time it might piss you off is when you go to a track and try to get the best time possible.... but lets face it, how many times a year do people go to a track, 1-5? i have never been to a track in my life (not even as a spectator).

99% of your driving will be done on the street where you can totallly control your traction.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

I think the biggest problem is that the 3SGTE configuration in our cars using FWD isn't effective enough in drag racing, especially using the patheticly short gears of the S54. The E153 is a totally different situation, as you're sharing the longer more effective gears used in more powerful cars. On the track or street in stock form, I'm sure its much better suited.

As far as what I would have done differently......I wouldnt have soaked so much money into the stereo when I first got my car, and I would have done a 3SGTE swap several years ago when I had the cash for it.

[Drew-887]

I would've done my 4A-GE swap by myself and gone with an ultra-light flywheel and an AT200 C52 instead of using the AE101 C52.

Whats a AT200 C52? Is that the stock St tranny or something like that?

[playr158]

in regards to the traction issues and launching

Nemisis 2.5 has staged boost control + slicks i think could help the issue a lot

[boosted_K2]

if i knew what i was getting into....

I would have:
Not sold the 6gc (surprise!!)... instead i would have kept it, taken a little better care of it and saved my money. Eventually I would have purchased a 350Z i think (surprise again!!) and kept my 6gc.

reasons: the MR2 is a badass car... but knowing what i know now, and where id eventually go with cars and motorsports, i would rather have a fun good looking daily driver (6gc VS my current cobalt) and a badass new competitive race car (BS classed 350Z) rather than blowing all the money i did to end up where i am... with a cobalt lease and a NA MR2. heinsight is 20/20.

[Consynx]

not bought the first car i looked at.

[Insanity-74]

Not bought 18" alloys...17" handles alot better + the tyres are alot cheaper.

Done alot more reading and research before starting things I knew little about.

Thats about it really.

This post has been edited by Insanity-74: Mar 13, 2006 - 2:13 PM

[hitcachi]

Greening, this is an excelent post.

[playr158]

for me...
listened to senior members more when i was starting out...

[BBoYRuGGeD]

hmmmm for me my biggest regret to this day is not buying this e153 trans off a solara with the dual synchros and all that good stuff with only 30k miles on the tranny for only $300 of this guy who just needed it gone instead my dumb effin a$$ had to buy a GT trans (tho in very very good condition) for more money than the e153 because i was afraid of all the "short axle problem" with using the e153 but now since theres a solution to the short axle prob...i cant seem to find that good of a deal for another e153...DOH! hey Doc if u read this do u remember that guys email? lol

i personally dont think alot of power in the front tires matter much in normal everyday driving or even in some situations were street racing is a must. i gutta admit tho that when you DO launch hard in 1st the tires will spin spin SPIN lol

bboy

[nik]

well if i new then what i know now

i still would have done the 7afte just cause i learned alot about the car

i cant comment on my 7agte but right now i dont know if i would have done it now just cause of the down time with the car and money spent but im sure i'll change my mind once i drive it

but i wish we could convert these into rwd or awd for under 5000

[jgreening]

i personally dont think alot of power in the front tires matter much in normal everyday driving

This is a good point and needs further elaboration. For those of you who are considering the swap, you should not get the idea that the car spins the tires when the driver is being easy on it. That is NOT the problem. The problem is that when you get much over 200whp, tire spin will impede your ability to put the availble power to the ground (and thus use it for speed and accelleration).

[playr158]

how much are you putting down with the GT28rs setup?

[Supersprynt]

A nice 2 stage boost controller or electronic programmable boost controller will def. help in this.

[jgreening]

how much are you putting down with the GT28rs setup?

Still haven't got in to the dyno yet. I will post it up when I get it done though.

[lagos]

i personally dont think alot of power in the front tires matter much in normal everyday driving

This is a good point and needs further elaboration. For those of you who are considering the swap, you should not get the idea that the car spins the tires when the driver is being easy on it. That is NOT the problem. The problem is that when you get much over 200whp, tire spin will impede your ability to put the availble power to the ground (and thus use it for speed and accelleration).

yep

the basic idea is... if you plan to drive your car on the street with the stock turbo, dont worry about traction. youll be just fine. during daily driving, it drives just like a normal celica.

if you plan to take it only to the track, well then youll probably learn all about the negative sides of fwd. the problem will be even worse with an upgraded turbo.

[scothaniel]

For me - the first lesson is expecting the swap to only take a couple of days.

Second lesson was making assumptions about the state of used parts. Snapped valves, bad gaskets, turbo shaft play - if your going to spend the time and money to swap a motor, pay to have it properly checked out and/or rebuilt.

[boosted_K2]

For me - the first lesson is expecting the swap to only take a couple of days.

Second lesson was making assumptions about the state of used parts. Snapped valves, bad gaskets, turbo shaft play - if your going to spend the time and money to swap a motor, pay to have it properly checked out and/or rebuilt.

i very much agree with your second statement. I would still have a MR2 turbo had I done that.

[frosty]

I would have to say the best advice would be to take your time and think about what you want acomplished. Try to have the whole build (or as much as possible) planned before any money is spent. That's what I'm now doing. (it also makes saving money alot easier )

That is just something a bunch of you guys are saying in a subtle way...

[Cutrara]

If you can afford it, go with a professional. I wouldn't try a port job on my own. I want to hire someone to come into my house and install central cooling. I bet I could do it on my own, but I'd rather have a pro do it.

This is one of the better quality analogies I've heard in a while and it's the truth.

[brianforster]

my "then and now" only corresponds with a couple months but here goes:

i read all the swap threads, read till i could not read no more, i had an engine sitting in my basement, and i was searching for a shell. i had about 4200$ total for a regular celica saved up, but marks 1700$ engine+tranny+wiring fell in my lap and my friends convinced me to buy it.

so here i was, starting a swap project without even having a car, all on a budget of about 4k (including toys such as intercooler, boost gauge, ebc).

i never really posted about how small my budget was because i knew people on 6gc would be naysayers, much like my "9 days" estimated time.

i was stubborn though, and thought not only could i get away with doing it for so cheap, but i could also get it done in 9 days.

this didnt take into account like posted, the condition of used parts, and the trustworthyness of internet people.

i havent fired the car up yet, that should be coming this weekend, but a small parts of me regrets this choice because my celica will be fast, but not the dream celica i always pictured, i wish now i could have been content to buy a low milage nice condition gt, and save up for an engine swap.

my best advice to new tuners:

listen to the people on this site, even if what they have to say isnt what you want to hear, youll have a sever case of foot in mouth when you realize they are right.

edit: i am hoping it will eventually achieve my dream celica status, but it seems a far shot and quite a few pennies off for now

This post has been edited by brianforster: Mar 29, 2006 - 12:13 AM

[urbandork]

Im very happy with my 5sfte. the only thing i would have done is not gone with a cheap oil filter relocation kit that ran the hoses near the downpipe. I dotn know how many times the hose craked and i had to shorten the hose. Not to mention all the oil i laid down on the ground and all the smoke i make lol.

[eggman40]

Man i have to say my biggest regret was not having everything i needed before starting. I was kinda forced into starting cause the throw out bearing went on the 7a. But i cant stress that enough to anyone wanting to do the swap themselves, GET EVERYTHING YOU NEED! if you dont, you will greatly increase your car's downtime. this means gaskets, hoses, MOUNTS, and if you have the money to do so, aftermarket upgrades
(such as downpipe which is much easier to install when engine is out). Another piece of advice i will give is to
those that will use the e153 tranny. When you take your tranny to get welded, have them drill and tap the
threads for the shift linkages. I tried doing it myself and it only led to a piece of the tranny breaking off and me having to remove the tranny and take it to get reweled and re-tapped. One more thing i regret was not having DG Performance extending my harness for me, I thought i was saving money but in the end it was a huge headache. I was cutting, stripping and soldering wires for 3 days. (Hell!) Good luck to any future swappers.

This post has been edited by eggman40: Apr 4, 2006 - 5:16 PM

[Rjb23]

I would have done my own to begin with, in the end it took me by myself 3 weeks to do my swap and repair the mess ups from the guys who I had "do my swap" who didn't do anything.

[Green_MachToy]

I would have sold the ST as it was the day I did the swap. Spent all the money and imported a GT4 from Sweden or Denmark (I just like the idea of having a true gt4 left hand drive). Had it sent to a buddy of mine in Arizona to register it, until I put 7500 miles on it and registered it in Cali and been ok with the car as is and smoggable.

[Chanh55]

I would have sold the ST as it was the day I did the swap. Spent all the money and imported a GT4 from Sweden or Denmark (I just like the idea of having a true gt4 left hand drive). Had it sent to a buddy of mine in Arizona to register it, until I put 7500 miles on it and registered it in Cali and been ok with the car as is and smoggable.

Wait... so you're driving a real GT4 imported from Sweden? I don't get it... your tenses are all messed up.

[Green_MachToy]

EDITED:
If I had it over to do again: I would sell the ST and not do a swap. Spend all the money and import a GT4 from Sweden or Denmark (I just like the idea of having a true gt4 left hand drive). I would have it sent to a buddy of mine in Arizona to register it, until I put 7500 miles on it and turn around to re-register it in Cali: I would be much happier with the car stock and smoggable.

Wait... so you're driving a real GT4 imported from Sweden? I don't get it... your tenses are all messed up.

I wish I were driving a GT4. No mine is from Cali with a 3s swap. I have edited the comment...hopefully it makes more sense now.

This post has been edited by Green_MachToy: Apr 5, 2006 - 11:42 PM

[Chanh55]

EDITED:
If I had it over to do again: I would sell the ST and not do a swap. Spend all the money and import a GT4 from Sweden or Denmark (I just like the idea of having a true gt4 left hand drive). I would have it sent to a buddy of mine in Arizona to register it, until I put 7500 miles on it and turn around to re-register it in Cali: I would be much happier with the car stock and smoggable.

Wait... so you're driving a real GT4 imported from Sweden? I don't get it... your tenses are all messed up.

I wish I were driving a GT4. No mine is from Cali with a 3s swap. I have edited the comment...hopefully it makes more sense now.

LMAO You have no idea how much better I feel with you fixing that! hhaha
Cool. =)

[y2komar]

bump
I like this thread. Keep it going

[99GT]

Yup good thread! Starting my research.

[x_itchy_b_x]

i wouldn't have waste so much money on half assing builds before finally getting it right.

oh and went all oem exterior parts. gt conversion. legit style. with the c-one lip ofcourse.
no z3's and no invader skirts.

This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Nov 12, 2007 - 11:14 PM

[1bwilson]

I wouldnt have impluse bought things. Decide on what you want and find it, dont decide you want it WHEN you see it.

[jgreening]

Nice to see one of my old threads bumped from the grave.

My new perspective is that I agree with DEF. RWD FTW in high powered sports cars.

As for the 6gc, my new perspective is that coilovers, slightly larger rims, and very good summer tires are all the performance modifications that should be done to a N/A model.

[Celiracer18]

i would have measured twice, and cut once to put it in other words

[97lestyousay]

This is a very good read, so far am happy with the choices I
have made. Other than having an st for the starting platform.
I will do the extra for a 3s, I totally agree with the stock form st205.
I desire dependability first. I am not knocking people who mod engines
many have proven it to be very dependable when done right.
haha listen to me, my old sig was " my car isn't stock it's restored" lol

[nik]

well im happy i started with my 7afte project learned alot about turboing etc

im really glad i had all my stuff done professional for my 7agte build only thing i would have done different a few minor mods different cams i wish i would have pulled the motor myself instead of the shop that was 500 bucks down the drain i wish i would have painted the whole car while the motor was out

and i wish i would have gone a different direction with my exterior (aka front bumper and fenders) but its ok for now

[95CelicaST]

I wish I would have thought twice about the location of my fusebox and it's relation to Washington weather...

Something else to fix I suppose...

[goferris]

jgreening this thread is possibly the most amazing thread i have read in a long time. since i haven't really done any performance or engine mods there isn't anything i can say about that but so far i am please with my choices and can't wait to see the end result. my only thing is that i wish i had more time and money to do the thing i want like paint my interior pieces and get my exterior mods installed.
i do plan on modding the bay in the near future and reading all these posts will help me a lot i am sure.

the only suggestion i can give is think long and hard about what you want to do b4 you do anything. don't just buy something because it's a good deal. buy it because that is what you are looking for and that's exactly what you want.