Seat Harness mounting, following on from 'Race Seats!' thread.. Options

[raz128]

Anyone want to clear this up for me?
I've got a 4point harness on my driver seat and a 3point harness on my passenger seat
When I bought the 3-point harness. The instruction booklet said to mount the tail strap of the harness between 0-45 degrees paralell to the ground which i did on the passenger side.
After doing some research to see if i could confirm it, the Schroth harnesses said the same thing

However i did come across this:
http://www.gforce.com/pdf/harnessinstall.pdf
for those too lazy to read it (or cant run pdf files) it says it's best to mount the tail strap -5 to +30degrees from a horizontal line to shoulder height.

Which is best mount to use? The lower point under the original rear seats or on the C-pillar?
The mounting point on the C-pillar would be within -5 to +30degrees that the pdf file states. but does it satisfy the 0 to +45degree instructions by OMP and Scroth?





This post has been edited by raz128: Jan 30, 2007 - 10:18 AM

[Diab1o_3000]

Well I was under the impression that the closer the tail end of the harness is to being level, the better. I'm not saying to do this, as I don't know how safe it is, but I think that if they were mounted to that bar going across, in the back of the hatch in that picture, would be more on par with where it should be. I think that's the C-pillar, which I would assume IS safe. I'm such a horrible Celi owner... I sure do wish I could remember the smilie symbols... When I put some Sparcos in my 95 'vert I plan to take out my back seat and pretty much make one of those crossbar type thingies to mount my harness to. Somebody let me know if I'm wrong...

[raz128]

Unless it's specifically designed for mounting a harness to it, don't do it!
The mounting points of strut bars or nowhere near strong enough in comparison to a oem seat-belt mounting point. A strut bar bolts to your top-mounts, not for attatching harnesses to.

The are actual harness bars available (not sure if any to fit the celica, though) that do mount to the oem seat belt points.





This post has been edited by raz128: Jan 30, 2007 - 11:34 AM

[playr158]

Actually its 0 - 45 degrees. I've got my harness setup like the passenger side of the first pic (the three point). The danger comes when people bolt their harnessess to the floor...near the seat brackets. Raz's look fine...all the places he's bolted them up to are quite safe.

how do you feel knowing you are now in the hospital knowing you're a paraplegic.
and contributing to other peoples potentially life threatening situation?
please don't give any more advice since you are very wrong.

http://www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/16.pdf

Proper Installation is Important
The effectiveness of a restraint assembly is also influenced by attachment techniques. The principal precaution for installing the mounting hardware to the vehicle is to minimize bending stress in the fitting. This is achieved by making sure the belts pull from a straight angle against the hardware. The assembly should be installed so that the straps do not rub against any surface that can cause the webbing to fray. The anchoring mechanisms should also periodically be checked so that they don't become loose or weakened.
Proper installation of the restraint assembly also means achieving the correct fit to the driver. Belts should be as short as possible to reduce stretching for better control of occupant movement.
The attachment points must provide the optimum geometry to minimize movement of the belts. Lap belts perform best when they act at an angle between 45° and 55° relative to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle as illustrated in part A of the Figure. This angle permits the lap belt to react to the upward pull of the shoulder harness. A system installed with a shallow belt angle, as shown in part B of the Figure, permits the shoulder harness to pull the lap belt up off the pelvic area and into the abdominal region with the likelihood of injury to internal organs.
The end attachments of the shoulder harness must also be installed at appropriate angles. The ideal position is anywhere between 5° below and 30° above the driver's shoulder, as seen in part C of the Figure.
If the upper attachment point falls significantly below the driver's shoulder, then a spinal compression injury is likely to occur. In an accident situation, the shoulder belts pull down and back on the torso as they resist the forward motion of the driver. The resultant restraint force compresses the spinal column and will add to the stresses in the spine already caused by the force of the crash impact.
On the other hand, if the trailing ends of the harness are too far above the shoulder (greater than 30°), then two problems can occur. First, tension in the shoulder harness is increased and undue stress is applied to the harness and its structural attachments. Second, excessive angle will
cause excessive motion. If the harness belts are too far above the shoulder, they will provide little resistance to forward motion of the driver's upper torso. The result is impact with the steering wheel and the possibility of neck injury. The shoulder straps should also be 3-6" apart behind the driver's neck to prevent slippage off the shoulders.
The reliability of a restraint system is greatly affected by the way it is installed. It is imperative to follow the installation instructions provided by the seat belt manufacturer. Also, the necessity of replacing or rewebbing seat belts every two years cannot be more important.
As cars become more advanced and consequently go faster, everything possible must be done to make the racing experience safe as well as fun. Failure to do so can cause serious injury, or worse. If there is anything that can be learned from the sport of racing, it's that anything is possible, and taking the attitude that "it won't happen to me" is risky, because it does happen.

also please remember to replace your harnesses EVERY 2 years!

also make sure you have SFI certified seats and your equipment is CERTIFIED.
Common seats found are NOT certified and will break under less then 1/2 the force and sometimes 1/4 the force that a certified seat will withstand.

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 30, 2007 - 12:31 PM

[raz128]

how do you feel knowing you are now in the hospital knowing you're a paraplegic.
and contributing to other peoples potentially life threatening situation?
please don't give any more advice since you are very wrong.

Woah, woah, playr... calm down I really appreciate that you're trying to prevent people from dong potentially lethal/dangerous things to their cars but please do calm down.

I'm sure Dave wasn't trying to kill anyone nor was he trying to be ignorant..

Going by the part stating

"It is imperative to follow the installation instructions provided by the seat belt manufacturer"

Even the instruction booklet that came with my 3-points from OMP stated the 0-45 degrees advice as is repeated by Schroth on their product descriptions in their professional range of harnesses.
This in itself is mis-leading advice from the manufacturers , so please don't be offended when forum users such as Dave and myself follow the instructions that come with the harnesses.

Just so you know, I moved my mounting points to the C-pillar mounts earlier on as this will bviously be in the -5 to 30degrees range on a horizontal plain to the shoulders. The only person that travels in my passenger seat is the missus and i always make sure she's strapped in properly (eg, includng the lap-belt), wouldn't forgive myself if she got injrued as a result of any negligence on my part.

I think it might be worth making this thread a sticky for the .pdf guide on installing harnesses properly.

(mental note to self: do not annoy Playr158, he will eat me with a rusty knife and fork for breakfast )

[Diab1o_3000]

Unless it's specifically designed for mounting a harness to it, don't do it!
The mounting points of strut bars or nowhere near strong enough in comparison to a oem seat-belt mounting point. A strut bar bolts to your top-mounts, not for attatching harnesses to.

The are actual harness bars available (not sure if any to fit the celica, though) that do mount to the oem seat belt points.

I actually saw something about that on these forums and completely forgot. Some guy actually had one fabricated for his 6th gen. You should be able to search for it. Sorry if I gave bad advice, but it was just my opinion on the matter.

Actually its 0 - 45 degrees. I've got my harness setup like the passenger side of the first pic (the three point). The danger comes when people bolt their harnessess to the floor...near the seat brackets. Raz's look fine...all the places he's bolted them up to are quite safe.


how do you feel knowing you are now in the hospital knowing you're a paraplegic.
and contributing to other peoples potentially life threatening situation?
please don't give any more advice since you are very wrong.

While I agree with your basic point, I don't think it was necessary to go that far with it. I'm sure he thought he was right, or:
1. He wouldn't say anything, and
2. He wouldn't have HIS harnesses mounted like that!
I just think that you could have gotten your idea across with a little more tact and less anger seeing as how we are all kind of part of an extended "family". That kind of attitude isn't needed on these forums and especially not towards a fellow 6th gen-er.

[raz128]

hehe, sorry, Diablo... just realised sounded like i was having a dig at you with the harness-bar topic

Did try do a search on it on the forum, though results were a bit, err....vague. hehehe

[playr158]

lol that wasn't anger i really couldn't care less about the way someone mounts their stuff. But if you're going to discuss it, you must realize the depth of the situation....which most people fail to realize...you'd be surprised at how many people here and other places I have seen that mount things all willy nilly and don't pay attention to the severity of their actions.

You have to realize the consequence of your actions....cause someone could see a setup you posted or information that is wrong..duplicate it and suffer big time for it.

that was merely "getting the point across"
posts about stuff like this should come hand in hand with some data and resources...such as the sparco site or tests and review data from certain organizations whom are responsible for the quality and safety of such products. Belts and seats = your lives


lighten up people its just the intarweb!

but to say the least your harness job still makes baby jesus cry and probably better off having it wrapped around the strut tower bar :lol:

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 30, 2007 - 3:45 PM

[Mynzeyes]

Whoever installed those harnesses in that GT-FOUR in the first post is probably legally retarded...

[Davesceli]

Well playr i got my info straight from the SCHROTH MANUAL... i called them as well. Those mounting points are fine. Sorry i don't have any diagrams. As for listening to you versus them..im gonna listen to them. So don't assume im taking this from nowhere i knew the dangers in not installing a harness right so i did my homework and i feel my harnesses are installed correctly.

Checkout schroths website...all the rallye type (street type) belts mount at similar locations. They wouldn't be DOT approved if they were to be mounted dangerously. They are safe at all the mounting locations that Raz used...im not too sure about the drivers side harness, but the passanger side is fine.

So before you go beserk on me again, do some more research. I have....

Raz thanks for backing me up a little.

[playr158]

wow funny you say that....

SCROTH in their OWN manual shows THIS

· Shoulder belts must run from the shoulders horizontally or down, at no more than a 20° angle.
In cases where the shoulder belts must be routed down to the chassis floor, support by a roll cage bar or harness guide at the appropriate height is essential to establish the horizontal shoulder strap routing off the shoulder/HANS®. Most racing seats are not designed and tested to carry shoulder belt crash loads from downward installation. Severe injury or death could result.
For the best restraint of the occupant’s upper torso, ideal anchor points should not be further back than 200 mm [8”] from back of user’s seat.

In the event that the anchor points are further towards the rear of the vehicle [e.g. using a roll cage bar for wrap around attachment] the distance between the strap anchor points will narrow or even cross over as described in following graphs and tables.

only 20* which is less then HALF of your claims? His belt set up MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT be ok provided a ROLL CAGE or a Harness bar post seat...which there is neither...
and i can pretty much guarentee if you take a protractor to RAZ's seats they fall outside those formentioned limits

this all coming from "your source"
http://www.schroth.com/installation-instru...s/en/index.html

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 30, 2007 - 9:04 PM

[raz128]

Sorry guys, i've realised i've started some sort of arguement here.

I agree with Playr about the dangers of the angle causing potential cases of collapsed spine (God forbid, should the wose happen).
I also agree with Diablo and Dave as I too read the information from Schroth on their production description and also from the OMP fitting instructions I got with my harnesses which said 0 to 45 degrees was ok.

End of day, we're all looking to help each other and sometimes our sources of information conflict with the other party's source of information. Like Playr said, it's just the intermawebnet


Now where can I get a harness bar for the Celica?! yum yum....

[playr158]

not an arguement....its a debate which are fully encouraged..

But you have to realize they are only saying up to 45* is ONLY ok with a roll cage or harness bar
though it is "possible" with approved seat

Most racing seats are not designed and tested to carry shoulder belt crash loads from downward installation. Severe injury or death could result. A 45° downward shoulder belt installation is possible with seats that SCHROTH has positively tested to take a load measured during a 50 kph [31 mph] and 28 G impact with a 75 kg (175 lb) dummy.

but not really recommended
but not only is your angles of dispute but your mounting distance and other factors are off as well
just make sure you're also reading the shoulder belt info and not the lap belt info were they work between 45* and 55* :lmao:

but hey...its not my spine (thank god) i'll never ride in your cars!

all quotes/pictures and data are taken from SCHROTH's website and manual

harness bar you need to have custom made. basically look at what sparco produces and replicate lol

This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 30, 2007 - 10:10 PM

[Davesceli]

Not to add gas to the flames but...playr did you read ALL those instructions. That diagram is for racers using a HANS device. In the case of a HANS device max angle is 20 degrees. Just letting you know.




This post has been edited by Davesceli: Jan 30, 2007 - 10:09 PM

[playr158]

yes it also states HANS in that post but the diagram was just a mere example....search any where 0-30* is the known accepted range

but should i also let you know that the 6gc is NOT approved by that company for installion of their products

Can I install the SCHROTH tuning belts in to any car?
SCHROTH belts should be installed ONLY into approved vehicles

they only have approved points and tests for the sub 94 celicas

but like i said its your car you do what you want but don't go around telling people stuff all willy nilly without being able to back yourself up.

though i really do like the schroth harnesses...i will be ordering a set in the future with proper installion geometry


This post has been edited by playr158: Jan 30, 2007 - 10:23 PM