mr2 lsd for 5sfe transmission?, got a whiff of this on the forums. details??? Options

[3sgteLuke]

so... i was bored and i was browsing teh forums and stumbled upon a mention of an 05 mr2 spyder lsd http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55683.

1.what do they mean by "not too agressive"

2.what are the set backs if a diff is too agressive?

3.could someone explain the advantages of helical/torsen? http://wikicars.org/en/Limited_slip_differential this gave me a general idea. is the mr2 a 1 , 1.5 , or 2 type lsd?

"The S series and C series transmissions share differentials:

The S51 (Camry, Solara), S53 (90-93 Celica), S54 (MR2, 93+ Celica), C56 (MR2 Spyder, Celica GT), and C59 (Corolla, Matrix, excl. XRS) all use the same differential. The MR2 Spyder's helical LSD WILL work in any of these transmissions. The differential part number is shared between these transmissions. Same part number = same part. The MR2 Spyder, however, was the only car to receive a factory LSD that is compatible with these transmissions. It should be exactly the same as the TRD Helical LSD that was discontinued for the S54."

4.does this mean that the transmission thats paired with my 5sfe is a s53? or a c56? by celica gt do they mean the 7th gen?

5. I would love someone who uses one of these to detail the handling difference with one of these installed. in detail

6. supposedly these are easy to install, true false?

7. can you tell this is reviving my interest in the celica?

8. Before this lsd revelation, what other options did one have when looking for lsd upgrades? excluding phantom

9. how would a 5s tranny paired up with an mr2 spyder lsd compare to a v6 tranny in terms of longevity, performance, and fit for application?

sorry for the explosion of questions but pleeez answer all of these, because this would seriously change my car for me.

This post has been edited by 3sgteLuke: May 14, 2008 - 9:43 PM

[3sgteLuke]

an entire community devoted to one generation of a particular make of car and no one wants to comment on limited slip differentials. as if the usdm celica inherently poses AWD miata like handling.

sad face

[Supersprynt]

You've got an 9 item list with links, nobody wants to go thru this all.

[urbandork]

Old news as i posted that link thread, in that thread a while back "http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=47687&hl="

Ive been running this set up for over a year now

hybrid 3s/5s clutch from spec
s54 trans w/c56 helical lsd


I went with the helical/torsen because it was less aggressive meaning that amount of time the diff stays locked and the amount of throttle which the diff stays locked is different. I didn't want a 2 or 1.5 clutch type because they tend to lock up a bit more aggressively depending on throttle and the tightness of the clutch pack. Plus the clutch pack wear out a bit faster and i wanted something that would last.

be warned tho technically the torsen/helical diffs are only half LSD because both wheels need traction/resistance inorder for the LSD to lock up. So if one wheel is on the ground and the other is on the ice the diff will not lock up.... i recently got a cabin and went boarding up in bigbear and solved this problem of ice and the wheel not having traction on the trails i went on by applying the brake as i went forward... this supplied the resistance the diff needed to lock up and i was able to continue on the trail/sloped driveway.

I also didnt go with the e153 because i heard it was heavier and lifting the st205 trans proved that to me. I was already accustom to the gear ratio of the s54, i didnt want to have to play around with the shifter cable situation, and my power goals where not anything super high.

i have class soon so to answer ur other questions quickly

just because the trans share the diff doesnt mean the bellhousing have the same bolt pattern

the install of the diff takes some know how and special tools and dials if you have to ask u should probably take it to a specialist. I have the know how and have the tools but figured since i didnt have the time or super amount of experience id have it sent out..... I actually bought another trans so the swap didnt interfere with driving around town.

hope this helps

This post has been edited by urbandork: May 15, 2008 - 1:40 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

so from my understanding Helical LSD is the best for Front Wheel Drive vehicles. Correct. Being that it did come on SS-III Celica's, Integra Type R DC2, and new Civics.

Helical LSD:

Manual versions of the Nissan 2005X are fitted with a helical limited-slip rear differential, as fitted to the V Spec Skyline GT-R coupe. Under acceleration, the helical LSD provides faster traction control than a conventional clutch-type LSD or viscous LSD and without relying on the performance of the Viscous Coupling oil as used in a Viscous LSD. Basically, the Helical LSD generates torque to both left and right rear wheels by frictional force between the gear teeth and the differential case. If one wheel loses traction and tries to spin, that axle's side gear rotates slightly faster, so transmitting the lost torque through the helical gears and back to the differential case. The engine torque is also applied to the same part of the case through the final gear so it in turn drives the road wheel through its side gear. Honda equipped the Integra Type-R with a helical LSD, which is a superior type of LSD that does not incur power loss compared to the normal viscous coupling LSD. The helical LSD tranny of the Nissan SE-R Spec-V allows the front wheels to rotate at different rates while still applying torque equally, reducing understeer in the corners and allowing you to grab gears on the twisties and apply the throttle in turns sooner with more control.

Torsen LSD (Torsion sensing LSD):

Torsen, which stands for torsion-sensing, LSD's use gears and typically provide more like 75% coupling. The MRT Torsen style front LSD locks under load so provides more grip when exiting a corner, but acts like an open diff under trailing throttle so it does not induce understeer coming into the corner. This is the major difference with a mechanical LSD. Most rally and full race cars use clutch pack diffs as a Torsen LSD is unable to transfer torque if there is none, ie if the wheel is off the ground it will not work, a clutch diff will. A Modena Torsen LSD is a non-adjustable unit that in theory transfers torque from a spinning wheel to the other wheel before it spins.

Point to consider - a torsen LSD, has silent operation and is ideal for street use.

Im confused as to why that information I sourced put torsen and helical as two different types of lsd, they are combined right??

I know a lot has to do with what kind of suspension you are running and the grip of your tires. I figured that Helical/Torsen LSD is used for cars with 180whp and 150wheel ft lb torque and below. Can anyone further explain the pros and cons for the 1.5 lsd. I understand that under deceleration the 1.5 will lock up and create understeer when coming into a turn, which is not good for ff drivetrain and the 1.5 clutch type "locks" when it detects slippage, effectively forcing both wheels to travel at the same speed through a turn. This prevents the inside wheel from spinning uselessly and allows power to actually be utilized fully. But this in turn will create more understeer. So why the helk did trd make a 1.5 way lsd for our s54 tranny's if its mainly used to Rear wheel drive cars such as the is300, mr2/mrs, ae86, and supra???

[BonzaiCelica]

On another side note in a straight line helical distributes an almost close to even 50/50 power split to both wheels. I see that quaife makes an aftermarket helical lsd for the mrs, 2000+ celica which will fit the s54 at $1250. http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product_...k1c6h8jn7v1u2i1
What is the difference between an SS-III Celica/MR-S Helical LSD vs this Quaife Helical LSD, which is better/last longer??

As to 1.5 Clutch type LSD will evenly distribute torque and power to both wheels evenly. I would choose this option if your more of a straight line racing kind of guy or you take your built 3sgte to the track. 1.5 clutch will alow faster deceleration under braking but will make it harder to come into a turn when your auto crossing or tracking the car. Am I getting it right anybody please tell me if Im saying this all wrong.

What puts down more wheel horsepower on a dyno the clutch type 1.5 or the Helical???
But if your someone who does auto cross and canyon driving and you have less than 220 hp, helical lsd is the way to go.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 25, 2010 - 1:16 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

can I get a reply from someone else please...

[DEATH]

Um - I'm here trying to learn from you LOL.
But I am an engineer so if you wanna point me to further technical reading I can decypher some of the more technical stuff for you if you'd like.
I too want to know more about LSD's before I make my ultimate descision on whether to keep the open diff s54 I love so much or tomove on to the "better" e153 with LSD. I may even keep the s54 and go with an aftermarket or MRS LSD - I just don't know which is the best option for me yet.
I am mostly a road/twisty racr who occasionally hit's the 1/4 or 1/8mile tracks [it should be noted that I have the power and over 10 years of experience with the s54 to make it dance moreso than alot of less experienced drivers with close to stockish 5S-FE's]

This post has been edited by DEATH: Sep 30, 2010 - 11:51 AM

[Culpable04]

clutch type LSD is a no no in a FWD car, the way a clutch LSD works would create more torque steer than a stock open diff set up.

if you look at OEM LSDs in FWD cars they are all Viscous or Hellical ( AKA Torsen )

and you are right about the clutch type LSD becoming an issue when turning but that's mostly on a FWD car, RWD cars can use the clutch type LSD to power slide through the turn, something out of the question for us. there are different types of clutch type LSD ( 1, 1.5, 2 ) but for our cars ( FWD ) we should focus on Hellical or viscous )

Pros of hellical

maintance free, and can handle long term abuse ( long burnouts etc )

Cons

both wheels need to have some resistance in order for the LSD to split the power ( this is why they are also know as Torsen as torque sensitive ) , if one wheel is on ice or not in contact with the pavement, it will spin twice as fast, leaving the other wheel static and car motionless. RWD guys use their eBrake to give the tractionless wheel some resistance and thus sending power to the wheel on contact with the ground. I guess on a FWD can you can apply the brakes ?


Pros of viscous

maintance free, super smooth power transcion, ( no torque steer )

cons

Viscous LSDs are sensitive to overheating so long burnouts and such could damage the Silicones inside along with the coupling leaving your LSD... well not LSD lol it'll behave like a normal open diff from there and on, how to deal with this ? trans cooler, and don't do tire destroyer burn out sessions to show off lol.

[BonzaiCelica]

if I were you I would get a helical over viscious. I heard viscious are louder as well but if you have an exhaust it wont really be a problem. I'm assuming helical is newer technology over the older viscous lsd right?

so your choice for LSD :

Quaife Helical LSD for the MRS/S54 tranny

Stock MRS Helical LSD

or if your lucky get a s54 tranny from a SS-III celica with chassis code of ST202-BLMVZF but that would be almost impossible and probably waste of money

[Culpable04]

I though the answer was for you BonzaiCelica

this topic is 2 years old, so the OP probably has made up his mind by now

[Rusty]

missed one, the E56 bonzai.

simply(lol) replacing the shims in a viscous lsd tightens it up again.

[BonzaiCelica]

missed one, the E56 bonzai.

simply(lol) replacing the shims in a viscous lsd tightens it up again.

I was going to mention that one, but for some reason it passed my mind as the e56 being an auto transmission.

ya the e56 is fitted on 94-97 SS-II celica's with 3rd gen 3sge and superstrut suspension

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 30, 2010 - 5:23 PM

[Rusty]

nope

its a manual. pre SS-III so 94, SS-II superstrut came with the stronger E series trans E56 LSD, extrenal oil cooler & different gear ratios to the S54.

This post has been edited by Rusty: Sep 30, 2010 - 6:27 PM

[99gt3sge]

I know guys said that the s and c transmissions share diffs, but how about the c52 from a 89 mr2?

[BonzaiCelica]

I know guys said that the s and c transmissions share diffs, but how about the c52 from a 89 mr2?

those mr2 came with A series engine (1.6 liter) mated to a c series (c52 transmission) so yes same thing.

[99gt3sge]

Perfect!!!!!! My friend has one lying around I just got to make sure its an lsd.