3sgte turbo upgrade which to get Options

[mk7celica]

Hello, I am kinda new here. I have a 1994 celica with a 3sgte swap with no engine mods but have a 3 inch dp and full 3 inch exhaust and a fcd, 4 inck air filter with custom air intake pipe and ebay special fmic. What I want to do is upgrade my turbo from the ct26. Dont want a ct27 or rebuild upgrade < figure I will want to upgrade again with these>Can I use any turbo I pick to my liking and bolt to my manifold with a adaptor or get a new manifold as long as I have A external wastegate and the down pipe that bolts to the turbo and exhaust. what I mean is if I have a turbo, wastegate and proper fittment to my manifold it will work? And also Do I have to have a ems to run right with the new turbo,I read that the ecu cuts out at 275 hp is that to the wheels or crank and is it the same for a jdm engine. Also ?i have some bigger injectors on my list to get is this a must with a new turbo?

[_Jim_]

Ok, so you stated CT26......so it sounds as tho you have a GEN2. You can by ANY turbo setup you like as long as it has a way to fit the 3SGTE exhaust manifold.....as you said an adapter, a bigger turbo with a CT26 foot print, or with an after market manifold.

You do not need an EMS right away when you install the bigger turbo, you car will run fine. You WILL be limited to about 275whp tho on the stock 440cc injectors tho. Unfortunately, you cant just install bigger injectors and tune them with an SAFC.....it doesnt work out well for most.

Take a minute and think about your overall power level, and choose the best turbo that fits your needs from there.

There is a great GB going on right now for a bolt on turbo kit,
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65743

and they have several turbos to chose from. I am going with the S250, as I plotted all there turbos and the S250 IMO is the best matched turbo for the 3sgte and 400whp below 20psi.


Another note on the EMS, make sure you get EVERYTHING that you need/want to achieve your power goals before installing the EMS. Tuning for the EMS is the biggest killer of getting one. On average, tuning for an EMS will run between 500-800$ And that price is unaffected by the parts you have installed....it mostly varies due to the brand of EMS and tuner. So what I am saying is if you need/want cams for your power goal, and after market Intake manifold, etc.....get them BEFORE the EMS, and have them all installed with the EMS. Other wise if you wait to get thiese item after the EMS install/tune..........You will need to pay another 500-800 for a retune, just a little heads up.

[mk7celica]

thanks Jim helped out alot. I see you have 330 hp Thats close to where I want to be about 325-375 hp. You say fuel cuts out at 275 is that because of the injectors being 440? If so I cant add bigger injectors and fuel wont cut off? Or in order to go over 275 hp you have to have a ems? Also the ems I was looking at is the hydra nemises. I have a friend with a mr2 he has a rom tuned ecu will that eliminate the 275hp fuel cut off? And just curious what turbo are you running to get 330?

[_Jim_]

thanks Jim helped out alot. I see you have 330 hp Thats close to where I want to be about 325-375 hp. You say fuel cuts out at 275 is that because of the injectors being 440?

Np, anytime man. Fuel does not "cut out" at 275 BUT, you start to run out of enough "cc/flow" to keep up with safe AFR's above 275whp

If so I cant add bigger injectors and fuel wont cut off? Or in order to go over 275 hp you have to have a ems?

The problem with just trying to thrown in bigger injectors is that you need a way to tune for them.....and there have been MANY horror stories with the GEN2 3SGTE and SAFC tuning.....mainly due to the amount of "fuel/airflow" that is required to take out to get back to suitable AFR's..........since pulling airflow to remove fule......you overly advance timing.

I have a friend with a mr2 he has a rom tuned ecu will that eliminate the 275hp fuel cut off?

The tuned rom by ATS is a great way to get around standalone ECU's, ESPECIALLY for your goal.

And just curious what turbo are you running to get 330?

My car is stock. I am running a GEN3 swap with intake, exhaust, FCD, water injection......and I am running 21psi on the stock CT20B, all on the stock ECU and stock 540cc injectors. This may be your best bet for your goals.....to do a GEN3 electronics conversion. It will allow you to use 540 or 550cc injectors, eliminate your ARM, and still be on a facotry ECU/tune. The 540cc injectors and factory GEN3 ECU paired up with a Walboro 255 pump have enough fuel for 350whp on 93 octane. No tuning required, no mail order nonsense, just a nice factory setup

[mk7celica]

ok I am putting it all together do you think with a ats rom tuned ecu I can go over 275hp? I checked out the turbo kit on here for sale the one you spoke of and I am on a smaller budget right now. I have a friend that will sell me his old gt35r turbo it has 12000 miles on it for 450 its a good deal. Tell me what you think of this setup the gt35r turbo,manifold or adaptor,ats rom tunes ecu, tial 44mm external wastegate, and downpipe to go with the turbo, st205 injectors. does this sound like it will work? and do you think I can hit 325hp? I can get allthe parts for 900 dollars 1000 is mt budget right now. And thanks for all the help, I am and have been pretty muchalone on getting my car to where I would like it.

[_Jim_]

Sorry but no, you need to keep saving.

Yes, you can go WELL over 275whp with the ATS rom tune IF you get there tuned rom with 550cc injectors, no problems there. BUT, here is the problem with going with the ATS rom tune.....You NEED to use a variant of the turbos they offer the tuned rom for. They dont have any tuned roms for the GT35R, so if you decided to go with this turbo, you can NOT go with an ATS rom tune UNLESS you ship/deliver them your car with the turbo kit installed and let them tune the tuned rom on YOUR car.

Realstically tho....you dont want the GT35R for you power goals. The GT35R is a 500whp turbo, and using it on a car that you only want to make 325-375whp is not worth it. Your are going to pick up A LOTTTTT of lag and not even reap the benffits of the GT35R. For you goal....and since you dont seem interested in the GEN3 ECU/electornics conversion..........Is to go with the ATS GT3071/ROM TUNE/and fuel combo. This will get you to your needs without the drastic sacrific of spool as compared to the GT35R

If you are on a tight budget and you are tired of the CT26 hair dryer, you can upgrade to a CT20B and pick up about 50whp. The only cost of this upgrade would be the cost of the turbo......which is "returnable" when you save up some more money for a complete FUEL/ECU/TURBO upgrade. You can basically resell the CT20B for what you bought it for.....just another option for you since your are on a tight budget. If you are intersted I have a CT20B for sale, shot me a PM and we will talk about it

[mk7celica]

SoDo you think If I get a rebuilt upgrade ct26 similir to the ct27 but bigger. The one I am looking at is a 54 trim garret housing .80A/R exhaust .63A/R to4e and ats rom tune cause I think they can tune a upgraded ct26 550 injectors and fuel rail I can DO 300-325hp? alreadt have walbro pump

[_Jim_]

SoDo you think If I get a rebuilt upgrade ct26 similir to the ct27 but bigger. The one I am looking at is a 54 trim garret housing .80A/R exhaust .63A/R to4e and ats rom tune cause I think they can tune a upgraded ct26 550 injectors and fuel rail I can DO 300-325hp? alreadt have walbro pump

You dont seem to understand how a rom tune works. You have to use a turbo that is VERY similar/identical to the turbo they offer the rom tune for. This is because they tune the ECU to the files that they have on hand. If you buy this "upgraded turbo" from another website and it flows more air then the CT27 you will have a lean condition....and will have to send the ECU back to ATS SEVERAL times before you can starighten out your AFR's. That is assuming that ATS will even sell you a Rom tune for the turbo you were describing.

I may be mistaken.....but last time I called ATS (this was about 2 years ago) they werent going to offer the CT27 with the 550 tune anymore because it just wasnt needed.

A CT27 or a CT20B at 18psi will yield about 280whp on a GEN2.

[lagos]

Read this... more then once...
http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm

[d0w0rkS0n]

Read this... more then once...
http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm

go with this one

[pikey]

if youve got an st185 go for fensports hybrid ct26 they come in stage 1 or 2. if youv got an st205 go for the hybrid ct20b stage 1 or 2. the ct20b 1 is rated up to 320bhp and the stage 2 is rated up to 360bhp, not to sure on the ct26 figures so visit fensport.co.uk if your not aware of them already as they run the uks best gt4's and have years of experience with tried and tested parts on their cars.

ive just ordered a ct20b stage 2 hybrid, should be going on at the weekend so when i get her remapped at fensport at the end of april ill be posting the results. also try and get one with a 360 degree thrust (only available on the stage 2s) as they are alot stronger and thats why my stock turbo gave up.

the problem with other make turbos is obv making adaptors for the manifold, custom oil plumbing and maybe making a custom downpipe where as the hybrids bolt right on. and with a decent intake, exhaust and ecu, a remap will see you good results