The engine's in 7th and 6th gen Celica, Why did they change?? Options

[BonzaiCelica]

So i was thinking the other day of the difference between the motor's in the 6th gen and 7th gen celica's. The 3sge engine was a very potential motor with 3rd gen producing 177 hp 142 lb torque, 4th gen "Redtop Beams" 197hp 152 lb torque and the 5th gen "Blacktop" found in the Altezza producing 207 hp and 159 lb's torque. I would say those a pretty impressive numbers.

Honda has had their vtec since the nsx first came out in the early 90's and they have been improving ever since. So why did toyota decide to go with a 1zz-ge and 2zz-ge engine for the celica. I mean the displacement went down in .2 liters. The 1.8 ltr 2zz engine came with vvtl-i to compete with honda's vtec? In the US, the celica only produced a 180 hp and in japan it produced 190 hp. Then there was the trd celica which produced 194 hp. Still that wasnt even enough to touch the Integra type r B18c5 motor which produced 195 hp and had around the same torque as the 7th.

So why didnt toyota stick with the 3sge. They could have produced an 2 ltr engine that had around 215 hp with vvt-i on the intake and exhaust manifold just like the 3sge blacktop.

[richee3]

I don't know every little detail about the reasons for the switch, but I know that the 2ZZ produced 100 hp per liter, something that a regular 3S didn't do. The redtop BEAMS did, so it almost made sense to use it. But the 2ZZ being a 1.8 liter was lighter than a 2.0, and one of the goals of the 7th gen was weight reduction. Also, the vvt helped increase fuel economy. But BEAMS had 17 more hp and 19 more lb. ft. of torque. I guess Toyota wanted more fuel efficiency than power.

[Galcobar]

Cost. The 3SGE was a more powerful, larger, higher-performance engine with a great deal of potential. It cost more to produce.

The whole idea behind the seventh-gen Celica was to take on the cheap little sports car segment, which at the time was basically the Integra. Celicas had gotten quite expensive for their segment. Same reason why a seventh-gen Celica has plastic interiors, while fifth- and sixth-gen have padded vinyl.

[SwissFerdi]

That's what I like about our cars...the interior is the first thing I fell in love with. The soft-touch material is just NOT something you see in cars today...I mean, the whole thing just seems luxurious.

[Hanyo]

Cost. The 3SGE was a more powerful, larger, higher-performance engine with a great deal of potential. It cost more to produce.

The whole idea behind the seventh-gen Celica was to take on the cheap little sports car segment, which at the time was basically the Integra. Celicas had gotten quite expensive for their segment. Same reason why a seventh-gen Celica has plastic interiors, while fifth- and sixth-gen have padded vinyl.

+1



also toyota was trying to change its Public Image. They got rid of all there turbo cars and tried to portray a fuel efficient car company.

[BonzaiCelica]

nice reply's everybody thanks!

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

Do you get what i mean.

Ok lets say you have three 7th gen celica's. One has a B18C5 motor in it, another one has a 3sge redtop beams, and the other one has a 2zz-ge in it.

Its funny you mention cost. 98 Integra Type R was $800 cheaper than SS-III. However this was because the Celica SS-III was equipped with Navigation

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 25, 2017 - 6:00 AM

[RavenAegis45]

the 7th gen was also more closely related to the corolla of the same time since they both used some electronics and the ZZ family engines. where as our cars where somewhere inbetween the Corolla and the Camry. the S series was also more expensive being a Cast Iron Block with the ZZ being Aluminium. overall the 7th gen was a drastically different car from previous Celica's. But if you think about it the basic designs of the S series engines originated in the early to mid 80's starting with the 4th Gen Celica being the 1st front wheel drive celica so natually a new set of engines and tech would have helped the car alot.

[trdproven]

Toyota these days lean towards economy

[nakamura]

Emissions was another issue. The 3SG series wasnt to efficient in that department hence it not coming out of japan after a certain time.
All the factors above mentioned are reasons.

[808celica]

One of us should go buy out and own toyota slap all the engineers and start the Japanese muscle era once again

This post has been edited by 808celica: Aug 10, 2009 - 5:08 AM

[Hanyo]

nice reply's everybody thanks!

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

Do you get what i mean.

Ok lets say you have three 7th gen celica's. One has a B18C5 motor in it, another one has a 3sge redtop beams, and the other one has a 2zz-ge in it.

Which celica out of all three would win in a 0-100 mph race??

If i were to take a guess, i would say its a close race between the 2zz vs b18c5. The red top beams was rated at 197hp, but its actual output varies greatly. I remember a member here posted a video of him on the drag strip with a celica ssII racing a gsr type r, and he manage to win. But we are dealing with modifications here and its really hard to make a fair comparison.

You have to remember the red top beams was design to go against the acura integra Gsr type R. Where as the GTS was design solely to compete against the gsr. That is also the reason why I dislike the 2zz engine. It was design with alot of great ideas, but it was design specifically to make around 200 hp and nothing more.

When it comes down to modified naturally aspired performance, the 18c5 wins. however this is very old technology, the k20 engines are the new standards for naturally aspired engine performance.

[RavenAegis45]

Cost. The 3SGE was a more powerful, larger, higher-performance engine with a great deal of potential. It cost more to produce.

The whole idea behind the seventh-gen Celica was to take on the cheap little sports car segment, which at the time was basically the Integra. Celicas had gotten quite expensive for their segment. Same reason why a seventh-gen Celica has plastic interiors, while fifth- and sixth-gen have padded vinyl.

That reminds me of how Nissan made the SR20DE series to replace the CA18DE due to cost reasons? But the 3S-GE Red top still looks way better than any ZZ Series engine

This post has been edited by RavenAegis45: Aug 10, 2009 - 8:04 PM

[bdub215]

to the op its 1zz-fe (i'd only wish it was a ge head). to try and answer the question it would depend on the transmission used. IIRC the B18C5 is from the integra type r. and with it comes a tranny suited to its powerband. my money would be on the honda power for the simple fact that the Corolla XRS with the 2zz is even or a little bit slower then the integra. but it all comes down to driver...

[enderswift]

slap the engineers? more like the suits that decide what cars will fill what segment. You think the engineers like busting their balls on boring cars?

[BonzaiCelica]

ya stupid toyota with their boring economic cars

oh ya and hanyo lets not try to confuse anybody else when your talking about the integra. dont mix the words gsr with type r. you put the acura integra gsr type r. yes the integra gsr and integra type r have the same motors but the b18c5 is a tuned engine version of the gsr. So your saying the celica gt-s was built to compete with a integra gsr that was rated at 170hp??

oh and lets not say that the b18c5 will overtake the 3sge beams. cause their is a member on the redtop forums that did a monster build to the redtop beams and i believe he is pushing 250hp to the crank!!!

ya and rumors about the new celica having a boxer engine eww that would just playing suck, they need to build a celica engine with those yamaha engineers again

[trdproven]

I did read online the celica gts was built to destroy the integra gsr

[Tony-B]

I own a beams and my brother owns a JDM EK9 (B16b civic type R).

The V-tec engine is a great piece of engineering, but its quite a different drive the beams. In the civic you have to rev to AT LEAST 6K to feel power. When it is in 'Vtec' though it is stupid fast. Its really strange to see the rev counter go so high so quick. Great fun to drive. You feel like a hooligan behind the wheel.

The Beams is sort of a civilised engine i feel (after 18 months of ownership) you drive around town at low revs comfortably and get 630-640 Klms on a tank of petrol. On the other hand it will do near 100mph in third and pulls strong from 3K revs right to the redline in every gear as smooth as silk.

Different engines, different qualities and it depends on your taste and the way you drive i suppose.

Where the Beams wins for me though is on the engine note, 6k revs in third is the best noise ever!!!!

On a side note, i do know of a fellow who sold his JDM DC2 because a VVTL-i 7gen whipped his arse!

[Smaay]

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

i know the answer to this. the 7th gen celica will win hands down. before i turboed the car i would walk all over ITR's and the weight of a car with the Beams in it will slow it down. so sure they might be making the same amount of power, but the weight will be a killer.

putting a 2ZZ in a 6th gen is not a feasible idea. it will cost to much to fabricate everything necessary to make it work. its just like everything i see a thread on NC.org when a newb asks about putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen. its just not worth it. and it will make the car slower

[Tony-B]

Putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen would make it slower?? Not too sure about that mucker. Search for the fensport GT-4x.

[njccmd2002]

Putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen would make it slower?? Not too sure about that mucker. Search for the fensport GT-4x.

i beleive this is expensive. not feasible. ive read it in the new celica forums.