Why can't we turbocharge a 3s-ge?, Compression ratio related Options

[dudeofchaos]

I know that the 3s-ge engine has a higher compression ratio than the 3s-gte (which I guess means that the pistons' head are thiner right?), but what does it change so that we can't (or shall not) turbocharge the 3s-ge?
Is it because it would (I don't know) be too much compressed exhaust gases for the turbo to hold?

BTW: what does the last number in the compression ratio mean? (Like in 10:3:1)

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Jun 26, 2011 - 10:51 PM

[808celica]

its cheaper just buying a 3sgte.

high compression cars cant boost high i think the max you'd do is what......8lbs????

This post has been edited by 808celica: Jun 26, 2011 - 11:09 PM

[azian_advanced]

it's written 10.3:1. it means the total volume of a cylinder with the piston at bottom dead center is 10.3 times larger than the clearance volume when the piston is at top dead center.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

you can turbocharge a 3sge but will have to watch out for detonation mainly due to the high compression ratio. to run a decent amount of boost, you'll need to lower the compression ratio, in addition to running the proper amount of fuel and ignition timing. in the end, you might as well just work with a 3sgte and save money.

edit: ^ what he said

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Jun 26, 2011 - 11:17 PM

[delusionz]

a turbo compresses air so when calculating compression total we have to factor in both.


like for example

a compression test on my 3s-gte with 8.5:1 came up roughly 170 - 180 which is good, a 3sge beams with 11:1 ratio comes up close to 200psi.

our 3sgte motors are generally capable of around 18psi boost.

[dudeofchaos]

That pretty much helps me, thanks guys!

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Jun 27, 2011 - 10:57 AM

[Smaay]

here we go again....there is nothing wrong with boosting high compression. the 2ZZ-GE is 11.5:1 compression and we run 10psi boost all day long. just make sure you have a good tune. yes detonation will be the killer. the ringlands will be the first to go

[dudeofchaos]

I'm not planning to do so (well... I guess not?). I was just wondering loll

[richee3]

The 4th generation 3S-GE BEAMS has a higher compression than any other generation, so you have to be more careful boosting it. Just because it's difficult to boost doesn't mean it never gets boosted. However, the 3rd gen 3S-GE has lower compression and is a better candidate for boosting. But the 3S-GTE has stronger internals and was built for boost already, so if you want a 2 liter engine with boost on a budget, it's really the only way to go that makes sense.

[malpaso]

its cheaper just buying a 3sgte....

exactly... It is waste of money and result is poor... There are much more things to resolve than high compression. You want turbocharged 3S engine? Just swap 3SGTE.

[3WayStunna]

Wow alot of one sided responses and generic answers.
Serious answer for ya...

First off you CAN turbocharge the 3sge in ANY form.

Putting aside money and cost here are some thing though, that you might want to consider first.

Compression ratio = to make sure you dont blow up your engine some low comp 3sgte pistons would be in order
Headgasket = nobody really knows the strength of the 3rd/4th gen 3sge stock headgasket...keep it safe and get a newer one
Why? you might ask..simple..higher cylinder temps and pressure that the stock one might not be able to handle

Fueling = There is no way the stock 3sge fuel system can even dare to support an person desire for speed and high HP numbers. Dont get me wrong
you can use the stock injectors and/or fuel pump. You just have to consider that they will eventually run out of steam the higher your boost
then you have to think about running lean. The stock injectors on the 3rd gne 3sgte are 540's and have been known to take that
engine into the 300+ bhp range. Suffice to say, you wont see those numbers on the stock injectors (or fuel pump) of the 3sge.

Intake charge air and intercooling = actually this is an area of advantage for the 3sge. WHY?? Well its a known thing that the 3sgte's center feed
design causes lean conditions in 2 of the cylinders. Basically equating to poor performance. With the 3sge's side
feed design it offers a more even distribution of air to all cylinders (IMHO the 4th gens are best). Also easier
or less complex intercooler pipe routing.

ECU work and tuning = Your going to need an aftermarket ECU to control all these great changes you are making to your engine. Too many choices
out there to cover in this thread or post...read some reviews ask opinions and such, and go fourth with your turbo 3sge

Now there are a few other things to consider but i just wanted to cover the basic stuff(still things such as new clutch, maybe new diff, gauges, possible better cooling/oiling etc, etc.) ...

Now knowing all of this, why would you want to do all of this work? To be honest, it would be a waste of time considering that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen 3sge's have a turbocharged varient anyways and even though there is no turbocharged 4th gen 3sge, there are the 4th and 5th gen 3sgtes which are vastly superior to the previous gens. Honestly only unless you want to have a turbocharged VVTI 4cylinder, or just so happen to have a spare 3sge lying around and you are bored or something, its a moot thing to do.

Would be cool to see a (done right) turbo charged blacktop though...a friend of mine back in okinawa had one in his altezza and it was pretty sweet sounding...god i love the sound of that thing....but hey he had money to burn and didnt want to bother with swapping in a 3sgte...and after hearing that car rev up, man i would do it in a heart beat...wait, actually i am, lols....

[dudeofchaos]

Well I never said I wanted to swap in a turboed 3sge beams engine but damn it would be cool lol. I was just curious.
Thanks for the info, but hey... there are 5 gens of 3sgte? I thought there were 4. All first 3 were in Celicas (2nd and 3rd in the Mr2 either), the 4th was in caldinas but what about the 5th?

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Jun 29, 2011 - 2:08 PM

[Keiri]

Well I never said I wanted to swap in a turboed 3sge beams engine but damn it would be cool lol. I was just curious.
Thanks for the info, but hey... there are 5 gens of 3sgte? I thought there were 4. All first 3 were in Celicas (2nd and 3rd in the Mr2 either), the 4th was in caldinas but what about the 5th?

5th gens were, IIRC, basically mildly revised versions of the 4th gen - and they were found in the last Caldinas.

[BonzaiCelica]

here are some force induction threads on 4th gen 3sge motors...

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...dtop-turbo.html

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...rbo-no-56k.html

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...percharger.html

[Neon90424]

I thought the VVTi also played a part in the nonboostability?

[BonzaiCelica]

I thought the VVTi also played a part in the nonboostability?

uhh no way man vvti with boost is awesome. Just take a look at The Supra which was added with VVT-i on both intake and exhaust in 1998???

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jun 29, 2011 - 4:51 PM

[Edophus]

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jun 29, 2011 - 8:56 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

soo running 95 ron on a 3rd gen 3sgte is better than running 95 ron on a 3sge beams. Which means its safer to run 95 ron on 3sgte over beams motor? ya I still have a lot to learn......

[richee3]

uhh no way man vvti with boost is awesome. Just take a look at The Supra which was added with VVT-i on both intake and exhaust in 1998???

Just the intake. Running premium fuel in both the BEAMS and the 3S-GTE prevents detonation. You must use it in the 3S-GTE and I'm not sure about how necessary it is with the BEAMS, but it's highly recommended at the very least.

[delusionz]

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

just because you can doesnt mean you would, the amount of **** you would have to do to get a 3sge reliably running 250hp, for the same time money and effort you'd have a 3sgte reliably running 300hp capability of ... what? 400? 500?

if its compression you want, you can always skim a cylender head

[3WayStunna]

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

If there was ever any question as to whether or not what you said is true, i think someone would have to take a look at the dno comparisons of 3rd/2nd gen 3sgte's with the 3rd gen intake cam upgrade...you know, running a intake cam on both the intake and exhaust (cam areas) of the 2nd/3rd gen 3sgte.......yes the powerband will shift ( i think it was 200-300rpm to the right last time i saw) but hey its a freakin awesome experiance if you are already pushing your ct26c2 to the limits (imma start calling the ct20b the ct26c2 since that is what toyota has designated it)...

[delusionz]

the bottom line is, if you started with a 3sge, a small turbo is a good way to add a little kick to it, and anyways at this point you have traction and brakes to worry about. if youre after more than just a little kick, instead of pulling the 3sge engine to build it up you may aswell buy a 3sgte motor to either build up or drop in and call it a day.

if you didnt start with a 3sge at all, you would be almost retarded to start with one if a 3sgte was accessible to you.

only reason for doing so is maybe if you had spare parts laying around you could combine a gen 3 3sge head with a gen 2 3sgte block, or you simply just couldnt get a 3sgte..

[Neon90424]

Would the VVTi be controled by the aftermarker computer if you put in some 9.0:1 compression pistons in it...I mean...you gotta forge it anyways right?

[BonzaiCelica]

Would the VVTi be controled by the aftermarker computer if you put in some 9.0:1 compression pistons in it...I mean...you gotta forge it anyways right?

edit: I'll just shut my mouth and let the guys who know about turbo's doing the talking.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jul 1, 2011 - 12:55 AM

[Rusty]

uhh no way man vvti with boost is awesome. Just take a look at The Supra which was added with VVT-i on both intake and exhaust in 1998???

nope just on the intake side.


Its actually pretty common to take the NA camshafts and install them in their turbo counterpart, as they are a mild upgrade & usually require less work installing them, than bigger aftermarket camshafts. High compression +T are up to a point, more responsive than the factory GTE.


vvti and ACIS are both beneficial in turbo applications, there should be more noticable low & mid torque.


I sort of agree with you reasons delusionz.
If you have own a 3rd or 4th gen 3S-GE from factory (as in not swapped), you can turbo a 3S-GE (there are a few on here that have) or you could swap a 3S-GTE over. But since the 3S-GTE/ST205 is also accessible to you. its just easier buy a ST205. But as for swapping to a 3S-GE and then to turbo it, it would definitely be easier, safer & cheaper/cost effective to sawp to a 3sgte in the first place.


Bonzai, I dont understand your last comment, but you edited it anway. My understanding why people disable their vvti when they start chasing bigger power with turbo, for a few reasons: lack of aftermarket camshafts (there maybe more options nowadays, but maybe not in the same price range as nonvvti camshafts) and secondly the cost of dyno tuning time to tune in the vvti.




Slightly offtopic, but Tom's Racing did a "280T" Altezza, it was turbo and limited to just 100. Also the altezza's blacktop 3S-GE has alot of readily available turbo kits from Trust/Greddy, biltz and I think even HKS do one aswell. Plus all the cheap knock offs.





moved to the FI section

[BonzaiCelica]

Bonzai, I dont understand your last comment, but you edited it anway. My understanding why people disable their vvti when they start chasing bigger power with turbo, for a few reasons: lack of aftermarket camshafts (there maybe more options nowadays, but maybe not in the same price range as nonvvti camshafts) and secondly the cost of dyno tuning time to tune in the vvti.

that's what I was about to say. That they remove vvt-i simply to achieve more horsepower.

Oh so it takes more tuning time with vvt-i huh didn't know that....

[delusionz]

Beams head on my engine would be cool, but very doubtful i would be able to achieve any improvement (probably a loss due to that NA cam spec ****)

lol my turbo is already 0 lag, spoolup starts at 2200 and full boost by 2800.... with ballbearing full boost already happens at the tip of the pedal so cant get much better response than that...

[delusionz]

with a turbo you would lower the vvti solenoid engage point to some point where in the middle of the turbo spoolup range, maybe around 3000

[3WayStunna]

with a turbo you would lower the vvti solenoid engage point to some point where in the middle of the turbo spoolup range, maybe around 3000

Makes sense....probably what alot of the honda guys do...hmmm, anyone with turbo honda experiane could probably explain...lol, i know there are some board members with a VTAK honda lol, jkjk....

But seriously lowering the engagment point would only make sense to best take advantage of the VVTI. Someone made a good point earlier about the 2J/1J and its VVTI. I dont really know when it kicks it or how, i might have to ask my friend as he currently has one in his chaser...

[Edophus]

vvti doesnt kick in, the i on the end means its always moving, it is programmable based on a various other inputs, it adds a lot to a turbo setup as it can affect exhaust flow, and therefore spool up, and thats a cycle that ends up with more boost earlier and more power.

as for the na engine vs turbo engine it depends on the revision of engine your talking about, the rev 2 na vs rev 2 turbo i'd take the na because the acis head is better than the tvis head as the tvis head has massive ports that taper in badly, but ultimatly once worked enough this isnt that much of an issue, but your still better starting with the na head. the rev 3 engines it doesnt matter. if you leaving it stock, a rev 3 na 3s-ge has the same pistons as a rev 2 3s-gte but with a larger crown for more static compression, and bigger cams that mean in reality there probably isnt a lot in terms of dynamic compression and actual engine endurance between them. I'd wager a rev 3 3s-ge will boost everybit aswell as a rev 2 3s-gte.

beams turbo's despite more agressive cams in terms of lift and duration get on boost sooner, and for much longer than non vvti engines, they can also run higher static compression ratios, this down to a mix of the more agressive cam, and the fact that the cam timing can move around. seriously research dynamic compression ratio, and realise that the static ratio is only one peice of that, its a whole world more complex, your cam timing changes it, your boost pressure changes it, its a whole different game.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 2, 2011 - 7:17 PM

[brenton1919]

yes the compression is to high to boost. u can boost a high compression engine but it takes stupid money so lowering the compression would be the way to go. a dish like piston will be the one u are looking for wit a egg shaped skrit

[Neon90424]

I think we all GET that boosting on a high compression engine is infact UNWISE. But the number one thing we all do when boosting an engine to high output is FORGED PISTONS. Now if we stick a pair of 9.0:1 compression CPs or Wiseco's in there would a 3s-ge(T) handle a ct20 if we slap a 3s-gte exhaust manifold and works?

[delusionz]

edofus i bet a 3sge unbuilt would max out somewhere well short of 250hp before major pinging on pump gas would require such retardation of timing that u wouldnt be able to capture any more power or otherwise cause damage to the engine.

on the other hand a 3sgte will handle 300hp+ atw all day long, we know it because we do it. 3sgte is hell detuned from factory, its good for some serious power right out of the box.

the first instance is a waste of a turbo, most turbos are at their best at 14+psi,,, they like to swing up to about 1bar and thats where they are most efficient for mid sized turbos such as the stock one, and even the one i run. 6psi ? maybe 8psi tops is what you could run on a 3sge+t, and then in that case you may as well get something so tiny that it comes on boost at idle and gives u 6psi till redline... and then u really gotta say... i just spent a fortune on a new turbo setup and all i got was a pathetic little peashooter?

all your google theory stuff is best left at that, we dont need your rocket science when we're talking about an engine that can only handle 8psi tops

if you gonna boost your ride, you may aswell use common sense start with a boosted motor and boost it more, have something nice in your engine bay rather than a pathetic tacked on peashooter turbo.

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 5, 2011 - 10:56 AM

[delusionz]

All this vvti stuff and high compression stuff and midrange torque talk, I invite you guys to come in a ride in my 1.6 tonne gtfour and tell me i dont have low end torque, I think having owned or driven every variant of a JDM 6th gen celica I'd be in a good position to say Ive got more response, more low end power, more mid range punch, more high end power in my current setup than any other I have ever driven.

So off boost you get NA response right? then on boost your into the power, ... Well if you pick the right turbo like a CT20b or a GT28RS you are never off boost for long and even if you are, boost is only a gear shift away, it's not like NA response is going to make you fast at 1500rpm anyways, so why bother? Why waste 3/4 of the turbo's capability??

Dumb notion imo

[delusionz]

The only real advantage of high compression small turbo would be that if setup right, its very fuel efficient

[Edophus]

all your google theory stuff is best left at that, we dont need your rocket science when we're talking about an engine that can only handle 8psi tops

would be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion it can only handle 8psi tops, and fyi none of my knowledge or theory's come from the internet. Nice argument though, whatever the point is your trying to make .

no one would argue with the two sitting infront of you its more cost effective to start with the 3s-gte, the higher the power you build for though, and the more you spend, the less important it is which one you start with, and in a few cases (such as the gen 2 3s-gte) if your doing a full build then you are better starting with one of the na versions.

also its worth noting that there are people who have done exactly what your saying cant or isnt worth doing, its quite cheap to take an na 3s-ge if thats whats in your car already and using hand-me-down parts from gt-fours such as the manifold/turbo/ecu and some other bits and peices which makes a very cost effective power upgrade if you get the parts cheap enough. It does however require you to know what your talking about.... Ultimately it is not black and white, and the point i was alluding to is that static compression is only one part of a very large puzzle, it is foolish to assume what can and cant be done based solely on that.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 15, 2011 - 10:38 AM

[ST205WRC]

so im possibly about to embark on this journey. i have an AT celica that i got for cheap and im going to use it for part to do a mcpherson swap in the front so i figured instead of buying another engine like i was going to that i could just use this one. are there any other real differences in the 2 that would make me not wana do this? like do the NA engines have oil squirters? i will be do all the work myself, forged internals, head work, the whole shebang. any info would be great.

[3WayStunna]

Nope the NA 3rd gen 3sge doesent have squirters at all.....anywho are you going to swap the beams in, or the 3rd gen 3sge? I thought it was a beams though...anywho to stay on topic Edophus makes a good point. Everyone is assuming that you would keep the stock pistons, therefore limiting yourself to how mush boost you can run in a previously NA engine. Last time checked low-comp 3sgte pistons are easy to come by brand new and actually rather cheap. And if you wanted to, you could use the 3sgte pistons themselves if you had spare ones laying around.

[Edophus]

i'm pretty sure na 3s-ge's do have oil squirters, any that i've seen do, i even thought the rev 2 3s-ge did not have them but having been shown some that do i beleive its only the 1st gen 3s-ge that does not have the squirters. It could differ from market to market though so i guess there is no guarentees.

anyway st205wrc you say you have an AT celica? then that would be the 7a-fe engine no?

[3WayStunna]

Well then, i stand corrected on the oil squirters issue. Even looked them up and found the part number . And i dont want to speak for ST205WRC, but im sure he is referring to a jap-spec model.

[Edophus]

Well then, i stand corrected on the oil squirters issue. Even looked them up and found the part number . And i dont want to speak for ST205WRC, but im sure he is referring to a jap-spec model.

yeah i thought the same before but was happy to find they do have them!.

he is possibly refering to an auto trans model just when i saw AT i wondered was it like at202 rather than st202, its monday morning and i'm a bit slow to get going lol.

I think if your opening up the engine and replacing pistons and doing headwork and generally going to that extent it doesnt matter so much which engine you start with its either down to preference or what you happen to have.

[ST205WRC]

yeah my bad its an ST202 A/T with ACIS. its a POS the shift solenoid went out in the trans so im guna junk it after i get what i want. would it be worth while to use the ACIS or just got to a normal side feed intake. from the looks of things i think i found my new forged build wahahaha.

[Edophus]

yeah my bad its an ST202 A/T with ACIS. its a POS the shift solenoid went out in the trans so im guna junk it after i get what i want. would it be worth while to use the ACIS or just got to a normal side feed intake. from the looks of things i think i found my new forged build wahahaha.

not really sure about the acis to be honest, i've seen a 400bhp rev 3 3s-ge and it still had the stock intake manifold but whether acis was still being used i'm not sure

[3WayStunna]

Man i wish EAZY was here. he would be able to answer any question about ACIS. If you checked out the MR2 forums pretty much all his post are about the 3sge in some way or manner. If i were using a 3rd gen engine though, i would scrap the stock mani and run a st215 manifold or some sort of custom manifold.

[Neon90424]

I kept trying to tell everyone about changing the pistons for some reason no one listens to me.


So I think we have established that by change the compression we can run boost on forged pistons and con rods? and that by adding boost we need an aftermarket computer that can handle vvti?

[3WayStunna]

I kept trying to tell everyone about changing the pistons for some reason no one listens to me.


So I think we have established that by change the compression we can run boost on forged pistons and con rods? and that by adding boost we need an aftermarket computer that can handle vvti?

That seems to be the gist....and of course we were listening to you ^_^
And the aftermarket computer deal would apply if dealing with VVTI or not. I mean you would need something to drive the new injectors (amongst other things)
unless you decided to keep with the stock ones (dont know why you would want to do that?)

[delusionz]

would be interested to know how you've come to the conclusion it can only handle 8psi tops, and fyi none of my knowledge or theory's come from the internet. Nice argument though, whatever the point is your trying to make .

cuz that's all you'd need to make big numbers, and with that comes alot more heat and stress to deal with... well it may not be as simple as i put it, but there is a direct relationship between static compression and the amount of boost you can safely run on pump fuel via the amount of power you wish to put out. I think it's safe to say that a factory 3sgte can safely put out an arseload more power than a factory 3sge

dont see where thats an arguement you can pick nits at really..

[delusionz]

The real question isn't Why can't we turbocharge a 3sge, It's Why would we turbocharge a 3sge?

Why wouldn't we just get a GT4 lol

This post has been edited by delusionz: Jul 18, 2011 - 8:55 PM

[3WayStunna]

Think that both questions have been answered more than once already delusionz....

A:) you might have a 3rd gen 3sge and want to turbo charge it....
B:) you might want a turbocharged beams engine
C:) if you have a blown 3sgte engine and have a spare, why not....

Their isnt any real bad reason NOT to turbocharge a 3sge. Its all up to personal choice with how far you want to do it. On a budget, youd be pressed to get any real results from it. Seriously all this talk about compression ratio and static ratio dosent really even matter. If you were to build a badass turbo 3sge/3sgte you would end up spending just about the same amount of money and the blocks are identical ( found this out because of this thread).

Only true downside, if there ever was one, is if you choose to not swap pistons, do something with your fuel setup, and just slapped on a turbo. Now with that being said, the true question should of been....

How can i turbocharge my Na 3sge using the stock components and what can i expect out of it all.

With this kind of question in mind, i think its smart to consider the obvious things necessary. Such as downpipe, exhaust, manifold fabrication, or if possible the use of a 3sgte manifold/dp combo...Do they even have the same bolt pattern?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 18, 2011 - 10:35 PM

[Rusty]

The 2nd Gen 3sgte had TVIS. Also the ACIS manifold doesn't have the restriction in the intake runners like TVIS did even when the butterfly's were fully open.

An example, quite a few people here in NZ who are running a 4e-fte or a 5e-fte in their starlets had improvements with an ACIS manifold from a 5e-fhe

You would need to sort out the oil and water lines aswell, the 3sgte uses 2 extra bolt holes on the top, the 3sge has them but doesn't use them.

[Edophus]

well the original questions was what is it about the 3s-ge that means you cant/wont turbo it, is it the compression? the answer to which is no, there is nothing to stop you turboing one, your just dealing with a different set of parameters so you'll get a different outcome, as for why you wouldnt well in most cases its simpler and cheaper to start with the 3s-gte version, and just a handfull of cases where you are better of starting with the na 3s-ge.

As for the compression ratio issue itself as i've tried to point out it will affect the maximum boost but it isnt strictly true its a direct relationship between psi and compression ratio as its a relationship affected by the cam timing, compressor efficiency, how effective your charge cooling is, what rpm's the boost is being made at, the weight of the car the engines in, even the gearing. So the results would be variable depending on a bunch of stuff. The rev 3 3s-ge may have a higher comp ratio of 10.3:1 but thats not directly comparable to the 8.5:1 of the rev 3 3s-gte because the na engines cam timing means your losing some pressure out of the cylinders due to later closing of the exhaust valves etc, hence when you calculate the dynamic compression ratio the picture starts to change somewhat, the actual amount of charge that ends up in the cylinder between the two engines is not comparable. The 2zz with its aggressive cams and 11.5:1 comp ratio is a good example of this, they boost well despite there high comp ratio, even 260bhp from the factory with no internal modifications. lol all that assumes you dont blow the headgasket first, which is entierly probable if you boost a rev 2 3s-ge, before you run into detonation problems.

none of that matters as soon as you open up the engine for forged pistons, i'd be more concerned at that point that i have block with decent wall thickness than which particular version of the engine it is.

think i'd prefer the st215 manifold over the acis intake given the option, and with the tvis heads preference would be not to use them and go for a small port head, but i think either the acis manifold or a st162 side feed manifold would be better than the stock tvis one.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 20, 2011 - 5:42 AM

[delusionz]

While were at it ditch the rubbish intake/exhaust manifolds for custom items, gen 3 3sgte head + gen 2 3sgte block, get rid of that pathetic excuse for a turbo that toyota labels "ct26", get the forged pistons , arp studs and gen 3 3sgte oil cooler..

The only reason for doing a 3S-GE+T is wanting a little extra kick out of a pathetic piss poor Celica while on a budget... and then you realise the car needs more and more money on overlooked supporting mods, the project ends up costing a fair chunk of cash, and in the end is still a pathetic FWD Plus Tee and you could have had something meaner for cheaper...

Not that I can talk, The money spent on my GT4 could have got a very mint GT-R Skyline

[Neon90424]

just boost an altezza

[malpaso]

just boost an altezza

Just reading through topics this note leads me to only reason Why I could think about turbocharge 3sge (not swap directly 3sgte) is having Altezza black top Beams 3SGE, put inside 2.2 stroker kit and to have unique vvti 2.2 3sgte engine... a lot of money, not sure if worths it but definitely unique enough to have excuse to do it

[ST205WRC]

not to offend any one that has commented on this thread but most of you are all very narrow minded. there are a few reason why you could/would boost a 3SGE. as it has been said multiple times if you are going to build from the ground up it really doesnt matter what you start with, gen3 blocks are all the same. for example i have a ST205 that i want to build an engine for. my plan is fully forged blah blah blah. i have a st202 that i am going to use for a macpherson front end conversion after that its kinds useless. so i am most likely going to pull the engine and use it for my build since i already have it. once you get down to that level of build its not going to matter about stock compression or rod strength its just like taking a gen 3 3sgte and building it.

[3WayStunna]

just boost an altezza

Just reading through topics this note leads me to only reason Why I could think about turbocharge 3sge (not swap directly 3sgte) is having Altezza black top Beams 3SGE, put inside 2.2 stroker kit and to have unique vvti 2.2 3sgte engine... a lot of money, not sure if worths it but definitely unique enough to have excuse to do it

not to offend any one that has commented on this thread but most of you are all very narrow minded. there are a few reason why you could/would boost a 3SGE. as it has been said multiple times if you are going to build from the ground up it really doesnt matter what you start with, gen3 blocks are all the same. for example i have a ST205 that i want to build an engine for. my plan is fully forged blah blah blah. i have a st202 that i am going to use for a macpherson front end conversion after that its kinds useless. so i am most likely going to pull the engine and use it for my build since i already have it. once you get down to that level of build its not going to matter about stock compression or rod strength its just like taking a gen 3 3sgte and building it.

What they said
Anywho can the 205 transmission bolt onto the blacktop? Also do they share the same mounts or mount locations.
Also looking at the benefits of the blacktop or redtop 3sge. Maybe having higher volume oil pumps due to the vvti system? Also could the blocks be just as strong as the 4th and 5th gen 3sgtes? Alot of questions but not too many answers...anyone got any ideas?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 21, 2011 - 10:48 PM

[mkernz22]

Not to try and compare it to Honda's, but isn't vvti just like vtec? I know that people turbo b16's, b20's, h whatevers (you get the point) all the time. Don't you achieve a faster acceleration with the vvti (or vtec) kick? My buddy had a 99 SI, and the vtec kick felt pretty cool. If you had a 3sgte vs a 3sgte with vvti, which would win? I would think that the one with vvti would because it could go higher into the rpm range as well as have a better torque curve. That's just my thought on it though

[delusionz]

except, you'd launch at an rpm higher than the vtec engage and never really fall below those revs when racing, technically vtec would lose cuz it has extra weight

[3WayStunna]

While reading up on both systems, ive read that VTEC is much more aggressive than VVTI. To be honest, after driving an altezza and my prelude, the altezza was fair more aggresive with spirited driving when driven under the same conditions as my prelude, yet much more smoother. With the VTEC it was like a KICk...well we all know what its like, but with the VVTI much more smoother.

I understand it that, VVTI dosent "kick in" but instead is a constant change of cam timing as the car is driven.
VTEC on the other hand, allows for the valves to operate in a differnt manner thus creating the KICK and such...

One thing i am wondering though, considering timing, is whether or not it would be wise to just turbocharge the blacktop. I mean, the biggest obstacle would have to be with ECU timing.

[Rusty]

Variable Length Intake Manifold (with info regarding ACIS and turbo) Actually the ST162 1st Gen 3S-GE had TVIS, did you mean to write ST215 intake manifold by chance? I guess would be up to personal preference which either intake manifold you use... but maybe not one of the TVIS manifolds



Can't swap a blacktop 3SGE into a ST20# engine bay, due to a lot of reasons and costs. You also cant mix BEAMS blocks/heads with a 3SGE or 3SGTE, due to a different cast

Hondas
VTEC - Varies duration, timing and lift by switching between two different sets of cam lobes.
i-VTEC — In high-output DOHC 4 cylinder engines, the i-VTEC system adds continuous intake cam phasing (timing) to traditional VTEC.

Toyota
VVT-i - Continuously varies the timing of the intake camshaft, or both the intake and exhaust camshafts (depending on application).
VVTL-i — Continuously varies the timing of the intake valves. Varies duration, timing and lift of the intake and exhaust valves by switching between two different sets of cam lobes.

Nissan
N-VCT - Continuously varies the timing of the intake camshaft, or both the intake and exhaust camshafts (depending on application).
VVL — Varies timing, duration, and lift of the intake and exhaust valves by using two different sets of cam lobes.

(I'm going to create a NEW sticky which will have this & more info for easier reference)

as I posted before

Slightly offtopic, but Tom's Racing did a "280T" Altezza, it was turbo and limited to just 100. Also the altezza's blacktop 3S-GE has alot of readily available turbo kits from Trust/Greddy, biltz and I think even HKS do one aswell. Plus all the cheap knock offs.

[delusionz]

Greddy do a kit for the altezza, with turbo, manifold, downpipe, intercooler, piping, and comes with an emanage or some sh*t... its a fully bolt on kit, no custom fab work

Does about 250bhp

[Edophus]

Variable Length Intake Manifold (with info regarding ACIS and turbo) Actually the ST162 1st Gen 3S-GE had TVIS, did you mean to write ST215 intake manifold by chance? I guess would be up to personal preference which either intake manifold you use... but maybe not one of the TVIS manifolds

if you mean what i said then no, st162 inlet manifold is an alternative to the centre feed inlet manifold of the st185, its side feed and seems to be an improvement, the tvis heads have huge inlet ports on them so you need a manifold that will match that, these large ports are undesirable really, the rev 2 3s-gte has very large port openings which taper down very aggrsivly to the valves and its not good for flow. Hence why the small port rev 2 3s-ge head is a better starting point when doing a ground up engine build.

The exhaust manifold stud patterns are the same between the na and turbo versions of each revision, they however change on each revision, so rev 2 3s-gte manifold fits a rev 2 3s-ge, and so on, this isnt true however of the 4th gen 4s-gte, which shares its stud pattern with the rev 3 3s-gte, whilst the 4th and 5th gen 3s-ge's both share a unique manifol stud pattern for both intake and exhaust.

as for vvti/vtec they are different things, the vtec is two seperate sets of cam lobes on one cam, and it switched between them at a set rpm, vvti alters the phasing of the cam, so the cam timing relative to the crankshaft, and it does this constantly changing depending on throttle input and rpm.

vvti is a power gain, it allows you to run a more aggresive cam for better top end, whilst being able to vary the cam phasing means you can retain or gain lower to mid range power that would have been otherwise lost from the more aggresive cam. In a forced induction engine it allows you to tune the cam timing for different rpms so you can help build boost sooner and extend the power band of the engine. In the past vvti was seen as an added complication but its so prevelant among cars now that its not a problem anymore and is a definite gain.

the vvti 3s-ge heads are a different casting to previous 3s heads, both the redtop and blacktop are the same with some minor differences in water outlets, they are however a unique casting in relation to the previous 3s engines, they have a narrower valve angle and the head is in general a lot narrower than previous 3s variants, and as i've mentioned before they have a unique stud pattern. Block wise they are the same as previous 3s engines, apart from they have an extra oil feed to the head for the vvti, i'm not sure if that could be added to a pre beams block, either way unless your stroking and need a 5s block it doesnt matter as the beams blocks are reputed to be the strongest castings of 3s engines to date, and the same as the motorsport blocks, altezza blocks have been used in gt-fours as a basis for rebuilds due to this, but using rev 3 head and sump. The blacktop has apparently the highest output oil pump due to the two vvti controllers which are oil pressure driven, but in order to use that oil pump on a non beams engine you will need a redtop sump, as both the sump and the oilpump have a recess for the crank angle sensor. Due to the head being narrower the vvti heads also need a different timing belt.

you can mix and match the heads as much as you like but obviously only the beams blocks have the vvti feed, and you will need compatible manifolds for whichever head you use, but you can fit normal cam gears instead and lose the vvti, you'd probably still gain power thanks to the newer head casting and inlet manifold etc, the valves are larger as standard on the vvti head as well as some nice features such as sodium filled exhaust valves on the redtop and titanium inlet valves on the blacktop which are 1.5mm larger than a 3s-gte. If you wanted to fit a blacktop into a celica though you need to swap the manifolds/sump/oilpickup and depending what you do with the water ways you may need to change the headgasket for a redtop. The exhaust side vvti controller will clash with the engine mount on that side but in all honesty it doesnt gain you much so fitting a normal cam gear instead would be a simple fix. Redtop obviously doesnt have that issue.

If you were building the ultimate 3s-gte you'd start with a redtop or blacktop/redtop hybrid and retain inlet vvti. Hks back in 99 used a redtop beams engine built for turbo to set the fwd drag record in a celica, although at the time they chose not to use vvti, understandable in a drag car as your only interested in a narrow power band. For any full on 3s-gte engine build that is going to require headwork, ie larger valves and more aggressive cams, it is worth thinking about instead of spending the money on the head, spending it on a redtop as the starting point due to its already 1m oversized valves, and more aggressive cams, and it will come with the bonus of inlet vvti, and the strongest block casting, and as an added bonus it already has a crank angle sensor so when you go for an aftermarket ecu, the engine already has the sensors needed in place to run it. the only downside of using the beams for a turbo application is the need to fabricate an exhaust manifold, but for many that isnt a problem.

[delusionz]

the main thing with the blacktop is figuring out whether it's going to sit in an altezza or a celica, as to what parts you choose, as you need the blacktop sump for an upright rwd setup, any other sump for a tilted traverse engine mounting

the intake manifold and throttle body may end up in a wrong position but thats okay, interchangable

[3WayStunna]

Found some more info whilst parusing the net. Seems that its true that you can use 3rd-5th gen 3sgte rods and crankshaft with the beams blacktop. But you cannot use the 3rd gen pistons due to a difference in valve reliefs. Actually the valve relifs in the blacktop beams are differnt because of the angle of at which the valves sit.

Beams on the left, 3sgte on the right.
Also you can just look at a diagram of the spacing of the 3sgte and (beams) 3sge and see a noticable differnce in spacing btwn the cams alone.


Also cam across some good info in that the bucket sizes and actual valve size are considerebly larger than on the 3sgte engines. Oil pump is obviously larger due to the increases need for oil in the blacktop engine. Ill list the valve and bucket sizes below.

Buckets/lifters = 31mm (auto)

Buckets/lifters = 33mm (manual)

Intake Valve Diameter: 34.5mm

Exhaust Valve Diameter: 29.5mm

Another interesting thing of note that i hope someone can clarify, is that i hear due to manifold pressure VVTI works up until +0% manifold pressure...In other words, in a turbocharged application, as along as you werent on boost you would be driving around with VVTI engaged up until manifold pressure exceeds +0%

If that is true, then that would be an awesome "stop gap" until you come up on boost, in which case the engine should behave much like any other turbo 3sgte.

So assuming all of this provided is 100% fact, i think its safe to say, there is a very good reason to turbocharge a 3sge........atleast a beams one. Larger oil pump, thicker more improved upon block, VVTI until you come up on positive manifold pressure, larger valves, a better diesigned head (something of note i found whilst searching for info), and the ability to use any other transmission that would normally bolt onto a 3sg block....hmm i see alot of potential there.

Now this leaves me wondering if anyone has ever put one in a 6th gen celica, turbo or not?

[3WayStunna]

EDIT: have also read that an easier way to overcome the problem with the exhaust side controller, is to either get rid of your cam cover gasket, and or use a 3rd gen one with a recess cut out for the controller...anyone got any verification on this? Heard it makes it possible to install "that sides" mount....

the main thing with the blacktop is figuring out whether it's going to sit in an altezza or a celica, as to what parts you choose, as you need the blacktop sump for an upright rwd setup, any other sump for a tilted traverse engine mounting

the intake manifold and throttle body may end up in a wrong position but thats okay, interchangable

I agree with you on the sump issue. But aftet trying to visually compare the 3sgte and beams oil pans (upper and lower) it looks as if it should have no problem clearing our subframes, as the 3sgte upper pan looks larger to begin with, and the lower 3sge seems to be larger. If anything using a lower 3sgte oil pan and pickup with the blacktops upper, just might do the trick.

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 23, 2011 - 2:02 AM

[Rusty]

however with the gen 2 3sge, may require you to convert to shim under bucket or shim less, depending on your goals or usage.

ahh thats what it was, the head differences was a different cast. But from what I read, there isn't much difference in strength between the blacktop and ST205 blocks according to glenn booth, which may explain why it was harder to find details of people who where using that block in their ST205.

If you really did want to retain the vvti and couldn't for some reason use the internal feed from the block up to the vvti solenoid, you could make up an external line up to the head/vvti solenoid like the people who build RB30's that want to retain the N-VCT . Also from what I've worked out the cranks are the same between 3rdgen & 4th gen 3sge/gte, redtop and blacktop. The 3sge/3sgte cranks are factory forged, while 5s/3sfe cranks are cast. And the redtop BEAMS rods are the same as the 4th gen 3sgte.

I wouldn't say 'considerebly larger' ours being
Valve diameter In: 33.5mm
Valve diameter Ex: 29.0mm
but being made out of titanium is a nice touch. I came across the same info as you have 3WayStunna, while I was looking for the valve angle difference the beams has, but could not find it.



well apart from the difficulty reasons of installing. the next trouble would come from wiring it all in.

[Edophus]

the st205 blocks were revised at some point due to wall thickness, later blocks will be similar to the beams blocks, seen plenty of early blocks split a cylinder wall as soon as the boost is increased.

for the blacktop exhaust controller simply removing the cam cover wont work, even in the st182 the clearence is minimal, pretty sure its impossible in a st20x without doing something with the engine mount, or dropping the exhaust vvti, i never tried it myself, i just had a look and thought no way..

vvti on the beams has nothing to do with manifold pressure, the vvti controller is driven by the ecu alone, and the beams dont even have a map sensor to read manifold pressure, it will alter the valve angle to whatever you set in the ecu tables.

I believe although i've never seen it done myself you can actually fit a beams head on a 3s-gte block and it'll work (not sure how true that is), but your compression ratio will be over 12:1 or something like that, the beams has a smaller combustion chamber than previous 3s engines.

you'd really need a programmable ecu for a boosted beams, if you were hybriding an earlier 3s-ge using 3s-gte parts you can use a 3s-gte ecu, but for a beams turbo your really going to need to either run very little boost something like 5psi at most or go aftermarket. Anyway redtop beams wiring is sooo easy, much easier to deal with than older 3s engines, blacktop beams however is a nightmare lol.

I dont think you can mix and match sump parts, i would think you need to use a complete sump be it in two parts or one, from the same engine along with the appropriate oil pump as they will match up.

I can check some of these things if you guys have questions as I have at the moment a rev 2 3s-gte, and a beams blacktop that i've converted to redtop in the garage at the moment, i dont have the blacktop sump or intake manifold anymore though, and i've got a rev 3 3s-gte in my st205 to compare. I also keep a bare blacktop head for measuring purposes.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 23, 2011 - 6:43 AM

[delusionz]

the st205 blocks were revised at some point due to wall thickness, later blocks will be similar to the beams blocks, seen plenty of early blocks split a cylinder wall as soon as the boost is increased.

for the blacktop exhaust controller simply removing the cam cover wont work, even in the st182 the clearence is minimal, pretty sure its impossible in a st20x without doing something with the engine mount, or dropping the exhaust vvti, i never tried it myself, i just had a look and thought no way..

vvti on the beams has nothing to do with manifold pressure, the vvti controller is driven by the ecu alone, and the beams dont even have a map sensor to read manifold pressure, it will alter the valve angle to whatever you set in the ecu tables.

I believe although i've never seen it done myself you can actually fit a beams head on a 3s-gte block and it'll work (not sure how true that is), but your compression ratio will be over 12:1 or something like that, the beams has a smaller combustion chamber than previous 3s engines.

you'd really need a programmable ecu for a boosted beams, if you were hybriding an earlier 3s-ge using 3s-gte parts you can use a 3s-gte ecu, but for a beams turbo your really going to need to either run very little boost something like 5psi at most or go aftermarket. Anyway redtop beams wiring is sooo easy, much easier to deal with than older 3s engines, blacktop beams however is a nightmare lol.

I dont think you can mix and match sump parts, i would think you need to use a complete sump be it in two parts or one, from the same engine along with the appropriate oil pump as they will match up.

I can check some of these things if you guys have questions as I have at the moment a rev 2 3s-gte, and a beams blacktop that i've converted to redtop in the garage at the moment, i dont have the blacktop sump or intake manifold anymore though, and i've got a rev 3 3s-gte in my st205 to compare.

boost pressure could be a good way of continuous vvti triggering provided my understanding is correct that it's a one shot operation, small cam to big cam as opposed to a true continuously variable system that gradually increases profile

sump parts fit fine with some extra drilling and tapping...

[Edophus]

boost pressure could be a good way of continuous vvti triggering provided my understanding is correct that it's a one shot operation, small cam to big cam as opposed to a true continuously variable system that gradually increases profile

sump parts fit fine with some extra drilling and tapping...

yeah the sump parts can be modified to fit for sure with some metal work, i have seen a rev 3 sump modified to fit a rev 5 oil pump, wasnt pretty though lol but worked and probably better than using a blacktop sump because the oilpickup will be in the right place for transverse, personally i would just use the right sump for whatever i was doing though, so if using a beams oil pump use a redtop sump, its already the perfect fit for a 6th gen, and if using a 3s-gte oil pump use a rev 3 3s-gte sump.

the vvti on the beams isnt a one shot like the older vvt on the 4age engines, the ecu adjusts the cam phasing from 0rpm to the limiter depending on various things, i'm not sure what they all are cause you cant access the ecu, but from memory when i used the power-fc and the from the other ecu's i've looked at its i think by rpm and load, you just set a value which is the advance or retard of the cam relative to the crankshaft, so you just set it and the ecu controls the solenoid that feeds the oil pressure to the cam controller, so its whatever you set in the ecu, and unnaffected by things like boost pressure.

[delusionz]

then what is it you hear "kicking in" on 4age blacktops? when they cross over the 4500ish mark

[Edophus]

then what is it you hear "kicking in" on 4age blacktops? when they cross over the 4500ish mark

probably vvt kicking in, i'm not clued up on the 4a-ge engines to be honest but unless they changed to vvti for the blacktop after the silvertop 4a-ge then its just vvt, not vvti, which essentialy is a system that is switched on at a given rpm, so in the 4a-ge engines it does kick in, its not the same as the constantly variable vvti of the blacktop/redtop beams and the zz series engines.

[Neon90424]

all this talk of vvti is starting to turn me on, could a redtop be put on a 3sgte if you changed the oil pump/sump thingamabob and EMS would that be a great for quick spoolup on a big turbo

[Edophus]

all this talk of vvti is starting to turn me on, could a redtop be put on a 3sgte if you changed the oil pump/sump thingamabob and EMS would that be a great for quick spoolup on a big turbo

its best to start with a greytop beams tbh as they are the cheapest variant, and identical for this purpose to a redtop, use the whole engine and insert forged pistons and rods, get an exhaust manifold fabricated for turbo, bigger injectors, and tune it with an aftermarket ecu and you'll have a great turbo engine.

here is a nice example, keeping in mind it was due more mapping, had a 2.5 inch downpipe and a stock mr2 turbo exhaust, it shows the beams has a lot of potential in a turbocharged application.

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...urbo-beams.html

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 23, 2011 - 2:58 PM

[3WayStunna]

Are the injectors on the redtop beams top feed/side feed, high/low impedence?
Any figures on cam duration or lift for either the red/gray/blacktop? Seems i cant find anything with this...
And from what i can tell, the spacing btwn the cams on the redtop look similar to the 3sgte (3rd gen) so im assuming the angle of the valves are the same, and thus you can use 3sgte pistons with no problems??

EDIT: Redtop uses top feed/low impedence (peak and hold type) injectors.

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 24, 2011 - 1:56 AM

[Rusty]

info regarding ST205 thick or thin block


Would like to see more truth/evidence in using blacktop blocks with 3rd gen 3sgte heads, as I looked back at your blacktop head you posted ages ago and compared it to a 3rd gen 3sgte block, and almost looks like there was a bit of difference between them (disregarding the vvti line), but could have been the angle etc of the pictures too.



Actually from what I've read & understand the Blacktop 3S-GE's vvti operates up to 6000rpm, which does make sense.

I have a diagram, that shows the different points of vvti usage in the dual vvti.



We do have these specs in our 3S-GE/BEAMS thread
4 Gen BEAMS Redtop 3S-GE
IN: 256deg, 10.5mm lift
EX: 244deg, 9.2mm lift
Thats the advertised duration, which doesn't mean too much. you need the accurate way of camshaft measurement which is the '###degrees @ .050" '. I'm sure you have the specs edophus? No the BEAMS has a narrower valve angle,which I cant seem to find, but ours is 44.5°

[3WayStunna]

WOW rusty that is some awesome info you posted up there....btw i wasnt too much aware of a beams thread, might take a read into it all....I dont know, but turbocharging a beams 3sge seems more and more worthwhile the more its discussed about.

Anywho i cam across a thread on the beams forums that had the valve angles for the blacktop but not the redtop...wish i wouldve saved that info..

Would like to see more truth/evidence in using blacktop blocks with 3rd gen 3sgte heads, as I looked back at your blacktop head you posted ages ago and compared it to a 3rd gen 3sgte block, and almost looks like there was a bit of difference between them (disregarding the vvti line), but could have been the angle etc of the pictures too.

Yea that is a good question because the blacktop blocks have seperate oil passages just for the VVTI...be interesting to see how you could just swap a 3rd gen head on their...maybe they both have the same passages, or there is some way to block them??

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 24, 2011 - 6:09 AM

[Edophus]

info regarding ST205 thick or thin block


Would like to see more truth/evidence in using blacktop blocks with 3rd gen 3sgte heads, as I looked back at your blacktop head you posted ages ago and compared it to a 3rd gen 3sgte block, and almost looks like there was a bit of difference between them (disregarding the vvti line), but could have been the angle etc of the pictures too.



Actually from what I've read & understand the Blacktop 3S-GE's vvti operates up to 6000rpm, which does make sense.

I have a diagram, that shows the different points of vvti usage in the dual vvti.



We do have these specs in our 3S-GE/BEAMS thread
4 Gen BEAMS Redtop 3S-GE
IN: 256deg, 10.5mm lift
EX: 244deg, 9.2mm lift
Thats the advertised duration, which doesn't mean too much. you need the accurate way of camshaft measurement which is the '###degrees @ .050" '. I'm sure you have the specs edophus? No the BEAMS has a narrower valve angle,which I cant seem to find, but ours is 44.5°

i'm pretty sure one guy who has used a blacktop block with rev 3 3s-gte head is on this forum but i cant remember his name lol. I dont have those cam specs, the only person i can think of who might have that is g.booth. Also i'm sure the beams engines use high impedence injectors, same as the zz engines.

I think its worth noting that it seems to be a waste of money going for expensive aftermarket cambelts or head gaskets with the beams, the oem ones are very good items, both the one i linked above and the ~300bhp na engines g.booth builds use oem beams headgaskets and belts.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 25, 2011 - 5:42 AM

[ST205WRC]

we really need to stop with this thread all its making me do is wana turbo a redtop. so i was thinkin..... a little work to the head, new valve train, good set of pistons and rods, drop the compression to about 9:1, with like a t28 or t30, keep the stock intake cam and run the gen3 NA intake cam on the exhaust should give you a 256/252 setup, and of course all the supporting mods. i do dare say you would have one MEAN little beams. yo 3way you need to hurry and leave the ROK and get back to this rock so we can make this happen. lets be the first ones to get a 6GC in a superstreet or something lol!!!!

[3WayStunna]

Dude im there....already speccing out my 3sge build. I mean seriously i agree, the redtop seems to be the way to go in terms with turbocharging a 3sge.

[Rusty]

found some info on an altezza forum

Other notes:
Retard Timing about 1 degree per PSI of boost.
2JZGTE Pistons will fit with slight machining to the piston skirt for oil squirters, factory 3SGE rings will fit the 2JZ Pistons. 3SGTE rods fit the 2JZ pistons with machining work.
3SGTE rods will bolt up to 3SGE pistons and 3SGE crank, they are stronger than factory 3SGE rods.
Compression with 2JZGTE pistons and stock headgasket is 9.6:1 which is perfect for good response SAAB boost.
Compression with 3SGTE 3rd Gen pistons is 11.2:1. Not the ideal setup.

Turbo Feeds:
Turbo oil feed can be tapped from one of the 3 bungs near the oil filter. This is direct oil pressure so use a 1mm restrictor if using a ball bearing based turbo. With journal bearing turbo's this is less of a problem.
Turbo oil return should be pressure free and as vertical as possible, the return from the turbo can be tapped into the rubber pipe running from the rear of the head on the passanger side down to the block. It will be hidden by a metal plate which can be removed.
Water feeds can be tapped from almost anywhere, a good choice would be the oil cooler on the side of the block under the manifold. Simply tap the outlet to the turbo and then back into the block.

looking at some dyno figures
275.9kW @ 18psi (though it was dyno in the wrong gear)
270.5KW @ 13.6psi
'could' be the most power you can get out of a blacktop/redtop(maybe?) BEAMS turbo with vvti and lack of aftermarket camshafts to suit situation.

[Edophus]

cant really read anything into those power figures, who knows at what point the cams might need to be changed for more power, and anyway you can still get vvti cams from toda and trd if you want, you'd want a non vvti cam for the exhaust side anyway and there is quite a lot of choice there, less so for the intake side with vvti but still toda do a 268 and trd a 282 duration cam or you could go with a cam from mr booth i'm pretty sure he just gets trd or toda cams and puts his own grind on them anyway.

If your at the power levels the beams cam becomes a restriction i think getting the right cam grind is probably not going to be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

not really convinced about the idea of going with 2jz pistons either unless it works out mega cheap, would rather go with custom forged pistons from the likes of JE, which isnt too different in price to forged 3s-gte pistons from the quotes i had, or arias have a part number i'm sure for forged beams pistons, by the time you've payed for the machining work on the 2jz pistons and rods it might not be any different. If your feeling flush also g.booth can supply them or you could use toda pistons.

[3WayStunna]

found some info on an altezza forum

Other notes:
Retard Timing about 1 degree per PSI of boost.
2JZGTE Pistons will fit with slight machining to the piston skirt for oil squirters, factory 3SGE rings will fit the 2JZ Pistons. 3SGTE rods fit the 2JZ pistons with machining work.
3SGTE rods will bolt up to 3SGE pistons and 3SGE crank, they are stronger than factory 3SGE rods.
Compression with 2JZGTE pistons and stock headgasket is 9.6:1 which is perfect for good response SAAB boost.
Compression with 3SGTE 3rd Gen pistons is 11.2:1. Not the ideal setup.

Turbo Feeds:
Turbo oil feed can be tapped from one of the 3 bungs near the oil filter. This is direct oil pressure so use a 1mm restrictor if using a ball bearing based turbo. With journal bearing turbo's this is less of a problem.
Turbo oil return should be pressure free and as vertical as possible, the return from the turbo can be tapped into the rubber pipe running from the rear of the head on the passanger side down to the block. It will be hidden by a metal plate which can be removed.
Water feeds can be tapped from almost anywhere, a good choice would be the oil cooler on the side of the block under the manifold. Simply tap the outlet to the turbo and then back into the block.

looking at some dyno figures
275.9kW @ 18psi (though it was dyno in the wrong gear)
270.5KW @ 13.6psi
'could' be the most power you can get out of a blacktop/redtop(maybe?) BEAMS turbo with vvti and lack of aftermarket camshafts to suit situation.

One thing i was curious about, is if all 3rd gens share the same blocks, shouldnt there already be "bungs" of some sort on the block itself that can be used? If not then i can completly see where tapping the new spots would be ncessary...

Amazing thing, i am reading through the same thread. Long as hell, but very imformative. Alot of talk about the use of 3sgte pistons and how (with certain headgasket thickneses) it would affect compression...will also say that this applied to the blacktop beams engine.

Some info about the redtop though, is that supposedly it shares the same rods and the st215 which would mean they are just as weak???

Also was also able to take out the TODA cams selection for the blacktop beams app.
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/cam/3sgs-1.html

Also dumping bits of info for someone to possbily use...
general 3s information that applies to all 3sg cylinder heads

Capacity 1,998 cc (121.93 cu in)
Bore x Stroke 86 mm (3.39 in) x 86 mm (3.39 in)
Intake Valve Diameter 33.5 mm (1.32 in)
Exhaust Valve Diameter 29.0 mm (1.14 in)
Included Valve Angle 44.5 °

[Edophus]

next to the oil filter on the blacktop is a series of oil ways that are blocked with little grub screws( actually some may be cast but not tapped i cant remember), that'll be what they are reffering too, the redtop sump has this also, its not actually on the block but rather the aluminium part of the two part sump, and where they talk about feeding in the oil return from the turbo is on both beams they have a large rubber hose that runs from the gearbox end of the head an down into the sump, its there to allow any oil collecting at that side of the head to drain into the sump.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jul 28, 2011 - 7:18 AM

[3WayStunna]

Ahh thanks for clarifying that edophus...makes more sense right now than what i was reading in that one thread! Working 12 hour shifts 16days in a row makes it hard to make sense of things....Anywho is this the same issue with the water lines as well?

EDIT:
Oh wait, the 3sgte turbo water lines are from the "right" side water elbow, and the other end goes through the stock oil cooler and into the water pump.....okay real question is, could you use the 3sgte oil cooler and right side water elbow to run the water lines?

This post has been edited by 3WayStunna: Jul 28, 2011 - 7:45 AM

[ST205WRC]

@3way the TODA 268 IN cam doesnt say you cant use the VVTi. the really high lift ones you cant use the VVTi because the change in timing at high lift can make the valve contact the piston.

@edophus there are 2 things that i dont like about the TODA pistons. 1 you cant get them in anything other the 86mm and 87mm bore. i dont really wana go to 87mm only really wana go .5mm over. the other thing and really the biggest one for me is that with the current exchange rate after shipping they are over $1300US just for the pistons.

does anyone know if the intake cam from a gen3 3s would work for the exhaust cam in a beams?

[3WayStunna]

Looks like it can. Ive looked into it for a bit on the EPC and they share the same part #'s and design. Then again would be better to get 100% visual verification. Also what i meant in showing the TODA link was that there were VVTI enabled cams(looks like we just ended up saying the same thing). Shame they only have two different profiles, but then again how much aggressive would you want them to be?

[Edophus]

Ahh thanks for clarifying that edophus...makes more sense right now than what i was reading in that one thread! Working 12 hour shifts 16days in a row makes it hard to make sense of things....Anywho is this the same issue with the water lines as well?

EDIT:
Oh wait, the 3sgte turbo water lines are from the "right" side water elbow, and the other end goes through the stock oil cooler and into the water pump.....okay real question is, could you use the 3sgte oil cooler and right side water elbow to run the water lines?

I dont really see why not, although the water elbow might need some modification to fit i'd need to check.

as for rev 3 3s exhaust cam, i've never tried sitting it in the journals on a beams head, i dont have a spare 3s cam at the moment they are all bolted up in engines, i have that spare beams head though i could take measurements from if its helpfull of the cam journals etc.

[3WayStunna]

Its not necessary. Here in a few months ill have he blacktop, redtop, and 3sgte both torn down so i can do a install check myself and post the results.

[3WayStunna]

Alright ealier i posted that the blacktop might be able to fit through some sort of wizardry near the driver side engine mount. Well i think i found out the wizardry involved. Seems that what would most likly be required is a retro-fit of an st20** water pump, idler pulley, tensioner pully, tensioner, timing belt?? and of course the engine mount. Thats what i can gather to the least of things btw...ill put these tow pics here for comparison btwn the two. But it looks like the similarites speak for themselves. Also i hear that the blacktop uses a returnless fuel system AND
fly by wire throttle. The returnless system shouldnt be a problem for those who just continue to retrofit parts, but how would someone overcome the fly by wire throttle?

[Edophus]

3way here is a pic of the blacktop before i dropped it into my gen 5. All i've changed is the tensioner and idler pulley, didnt change the water/oilpumps or anything else as i used a redtop beams sump. You'll only need to swap the oil pump over if you use a different sump to the beams, as the beams oil pump has a recess for the crankshaft angle sensor so wont match up to the non beams sumps. Your still going to have the problem on a gen 6 that the exhaust vvti controller sticks out so far it will try and physically occupy the same space as the engine mount.



the blacktop beams does use a returnless fuel system, the ecu controls the pump, if you want to use the blacktop ecu then you will either need to retrofit the altezza pump in place of your own, or add a small tank with the altezza pump in it and a lift pump from your tank to the smaller tank, or simplest just alter the fuel rail to make it a return system and add an adjustable pressure regulator.

The altezza is drive by wire also. If your putting it in a celica and using a redtop inlet manifold then the throttle body wont match. I'm not going any further with my blacktop/redtop hybrid justnow as when i pick up that project again i will use aftermarket ecu, but if i was to continue where i left off i'd save myself a major headache and just drop the exhaust vvti controller for a fixed cam gear and run the whole thing on a stock redtop beams ecu as they are easy to work with, and its pretty easy to adapt the blacktop loom for it although you need different coilpacks. There really is nothing but pain in starting with a blacktop over a redtop!.

[3WayStunna]

Edophus very helpful picture. Never new you were retro-fitting a blacktop into your 5th gen. Hope to continue to see some more information about your progress....that is if you dont mind

Anywho i can finally visually see what everyone means with the mount...hmm from the way it sounds putting in a redtop would be the obviously easy choice for us 6th gen folks...

Also gotcha on the DRIVE by wire throttle. I just re-read my last post and noticed i typed FLY-BY wire system....guess my job has my head all messed up lol..

[ST205WRC]

so basically stay with the red top for the 6th gen. now how much different are the valves in the black top vs the red top? could we use the 6sp black top valves in the red top as an upgrade? are the other demensions of the valves the same other then the diameter of the valve itself? i think it would be a worthwile upgrade stronger, lighter and bigger.

[Edophus]

the blacktop intake valves are 35mm vs 34.5mm for the redtop (all previous 3s engines are 33.5mm), i'll need to check the exhaust i cant remember off the top of my head. The blacktop valves are titanium and apparently half the weight of redtop valves. The difference between the redtop/blacktop are more a combination of slightly larger valves, and slightly more compression, the difference in power isnt great but the blacktop is setup to make its power slightly higher up the revs, hence more compression and bigger lighter valves, peak power is 600rpm higher, unlikely to gain much in the way of power from using a blacktop but the end product should show better results than the power difference would suggest. In either case both blacktop/redtop respond very well to an aftermarket ecu so its always the best place to put your money first imo.

There is nothing to stop you shoving a blacktop head on a redtop engine, the head casting is the same, except for the water ways, and thats easy to account for with a small blanking plate, and just drop the exhaust vvti controller for a solid cam gear. Although as usual you'd have to weight that up against just having some headwork done to the redtop head.

Ultimatly there is little to gain from starting with a blacktop, or even using the blacktop at any point, it'll be better, but by how much and how much extra pain did you need to go through lol. I'm not going any further at the moment with mine as i'm satisfied its going to work, but really want to build it for boost, so its sitting ready to be torn down again when i can afford some nice forged internals for it. I had it in and running to the point i could drive around, but had issues with the fueling and the throttle body, so no power over 3000rpm, both of which i'm sure some more time/money investment would solve, but as i want to run aftermarket ecu in the long term they wont be a problem at that point.

the setup i used was

blacktop head and block, complete with blacktop water ways and head gasket
redtop oilpickup, windage tray and sump.
redtop inlet manifold and throttle body
redtop tensioner and idler pulley

I was able to retain the blacktop water ways as i had the room for the pipes, if you have to convert to redtop water ways then you also need to change the blacktop head gasket for a redtop, as the gasket alters the water flow through the block. Really you end up using so many redtop parts, it will probably cost you twice as much as just doing a redtop, and thats a lot of extra cash that could have been spent upgrading the redtop, i managed to do mine for about the same cost as a redtop, simply because i was lucky and paid peanuts for the blacktop, but i've never seen another that cheap since, they are all two and half times the price i paid for mine, so it kind of made sense to have a go, but i wouldnt recomend it!. If your going beams with the intent of turbocharging, then its reallly hard to see past a greytop beams, the only difference between it and a redtop is the greytop exhaust manifold has pre cats built in, but your chucking it away anyway, so doesnt matter.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 11, 2011 - 10:09 AM

[lankyalien]

its cheaper just buying a 3sgte.

high compression cars cant boost high i think the max you'd do is what......8lbs????

In addition. to achieve this you need to keep temperatures down, especially of the intake charge. Intercooling needs to be 100% efficient or better, spark plugs have to be colder to disperse heat from the cylinder at the point of ignition. It's a good idea to use a fast road or rally cam, reducing the restriction of airflow past the valve and therefore reducing heat of the intake charge at this point and reducing the chance of creating a hot spot around the valve. Fuel and ignition settings need to be adjusted. Preferably strengthen the internals but if a relatively low boost (ie 8-10psi) is used, and and appropriate ignition and fuel map are used, this should be able to be used on a standard build engine

[delusionz]

woah, supercharger and carbon fibre intake on a 3sge

[fgvillegas]

If you were to turbocharge a 3rd gen 3sge in 2 different ways, that is:

1 - internals are the same and having the right amount of boost and turbo size for street use
2 - internals were changed to increase strength and lower the compression and having the right amount of boost and turbo size for street use

At low to mid rpm range, which of the 2 setups will give more power and torque?

I was thinking that it could be setup 1 because of the compression ration is still maintained. But then again, it's just my understanding and would appreciate if someone could enlighten me on this.

Thanks.

[fgvillegas]

I hope someone can shed a light on this. I'm planning to have a high comp turbo on my 3rd gen 3sge next year.

[Neon90424]

supercharge it with stock internals. bam!

[fgvillegas]

supercharge it with stock internals. bam!

Sounds like a good idea! What kind of supercharger can be used?

Thanks!

[Neon90424]

it might be a good idea but in the end superchargers = expensive, I know that blitz supercharger for the 2zz-ge does a max of 8 psi which is about the most that the 3s-ge can handle which is why I thought of it...plus it sounds damn mean

[3WayStunna]

There is also the rotrex line of superchargers....http://www.rotrex.com/Home.aspx
http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...percharger.html = supercharged beams by user Mandalay.
Dont forget about the supercharged 3sfe engine out there...dont currently have the link but it was a limited edition "JAPAN ONLY" engine.
Then there is the picture i posted about some random unkn guy who is building a twincharged 3sgte...
And then the Hillcimb celica that IS twincharged, lol....

Then there is also the thread on here about supercharging a 7afe lol...to be honest i would say it would cost the same as a turbo charger setup if not a bit cheaper..Always cool to see more supercharger setups...

woah, supercharger and carbon fibre intake on a 3sge

Yea i stole that pic from MR2OC...that manifold was GOING to be a production type, much like RacerX's , manifolds...but i guess the maker reneged on it all and dropped out of the MR2 scene....Would of been an awesome manifold to have on your car though