Why can't we turbocharge a 3s-ge?, Compression ratio related Options

[dudeofchaos]

I know that the 3s-ge engine has a higher compression ratio than the 3s-gte (which I guess means that the pistons' head are thiner right?), but what does it change so that we can't (or shall not) turbocharge the 3s-ge?
Is it because it would (I don't know) be too much compressed exhaust gases for the turbo to hold?

BTW: what does the last number in the compression ratio mean? (Like in 10:3:1)

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Jun 26, 2011 - 10:51 PM

[808celica]

its cheaper just buying a 3sgte.

high compression cars cant boost high i think the max you'd do is what......8lbs????

This post has been edited by 808celica: Jun 26, 2011 - 11:09 PM

[azian_advanced]

it's written 10.3:1. it means the total volume of a cylinder with the piston at bottom dead center is 10.3 times larger than the clearance volume when the piston is at top dead center.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

you can turbocharge a 3sge but will have to watch out for detonation mainly due to the high compression ratio. to run a decent amount of boost, you'll need to lower the compression ratio, in addition to running the proper amount of fuel and ignition timing. in the end, you might as well just work with a 3sgte and save money.

edit: ^ what he said

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Jun 26, 2011 - 11:17 PM

[delusionz]

a turbo compresses air so when calculating compression total we have to factor in both.


like for example

a compression test on my 3s-gte with 8.5:1 came up roughly 170 - 180 which is good, a 3sge beams with 11:1 ratio comes up close to 200psi.

our 3sgte motors are generally capable of around 18psi boost.

[dudeofchaos]

That pretty much helps me, thanks guys!

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Jun 27, 2011 - 10:57 AM

[Smaay]

here we go again....there is nothing wrong with boosting high compression. the 2ZZ-GE is 11.5:1 compression and we run 10psi boost all day long. just make sure you have a good tune. yes detonation will be the killer. the ringlands will be the first to go

[dudeofchaos]

I'm not planning to do so (well... I guess not?). I was just wondering loll

[richee3]

The 4th generation 3S-GE BEAMS has a higher compression than any other generation, so you have to be more careful boosting it. Just because it's difficult to boost doesn't mean it never gets boosted. However, the 3rd gen 3S-GE has lower compression and is a better candidate for boosting. But the 3S-GTE has stronger internals and was built for boost already, so if you want a 2 liter engine with boost on a budget, it's really the only way to go that makes sense.

[malpaso]

its cheaper just buying a 3sgte....

exactly... It is waste of money and result is poor... There are much more things to resolve than high compression. You want turbocharged 3S engine? Just swap 3SGTE.

[3WayStunna]

Wow alot of one sided responses and generic answers.
Serious answer for ya...

First off you CAN turbocharge the 3sge in ANY form.

Putting aside money and cost here are some thing though, that you might want to consider first.

Compression ratio = to make sure you dont blow up your engine some low comp 3sgte pistons would be in order
Headgasket = nobody really knows the strength of the 3rd/4th gen 3sge stock headgasket...keep it safe and get a newer one
Why? you might ask..simple..higher cylinder temps and pressure that the stock one might not be able to handle

Fueling = There is no way the stock 3sge fuel system can even dare to support an person desire for speed and high HP numbers. Dont get me wrong
you can use the stock injectors and/or fuel pump. You just have to consider that they will eventually run out of steam the higher your boost
then you have to think about running lean. The stock injectors on the 3rd gne 3sgte are 540's and have been known to take that
engine into the 300+ bhp range. Suffice to say, you wont see those numbers on the stock injectors (or fuel pump) of the 3sge.

Intake charge air and intercooling = actually this is an area of advantage for the 3sge. WHY?? Well its a known thing that the 3sgte's center feed
design causes lean conditions in 2 of the cylinders. Basically equating to poor performance. With the 3sge's side
feed design it offers a more even distribution of air to all cylinders (IMHO the 4th gens are best). Also easier
or less complex intercooler pipe routing.

ECU work and tuning = Your going to need an aftermarket ECU to control all these great changes you are making to your engine. Too many choices
out there to cover in this thread or post...read some reviews ask opinions and such, and go fourth with your turbo 3sge

Now there are a few other things to consider but i just wanted to cover the basic stuff(still things such as new clutch, maybe new diff, gauges, possible better cooling/oiling etc, etc.) ...

Now knowing all of this, why would you want to do all of this work? To be honest, it would be a waste of time considering that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gen 3sge's have a turbocharged varient anyways and even though there is no turbocharged 4th gen 3sge, there are the 4th and 5th gen 3sgtes which are vastly superior to the previous gens. Honestly only unless you want to have a turbocharged VVTI 4cylinder, or just so happen to have a spare 3sge lying around and you are bored or something, its a moot thing to do.

Would be cool to see a (done right) turbo charged blacktop though...a friend of mine back in okinawa had one in his altezza and it was pretty sweet sounding...god i love the sound of that thing....but hey he had money to burn and didnt want to bother with swapping in a 3sgte...and after hearing that car rev up, man i would do it in a heart beat...wait, actually i am, lols....

[dudeofchaos]

Well I never said I wanted to swap in a turboed 3sge beams engine but damn it would be cool lol. I was just curious.
Thanks for the info, but hey... there are 5 gens of 3sgte? I thought there were 4. All first 3 were in Celicas (2nd and 3rd in the Mr2 either), the 4th was in caldinas but what about the 5th?

This post has been edited by dudeofchaos: Jun 29, 2011 - 2:08 PM

[Keiri]

Well I never said I wanted to swap in a turboed 3sge beams engine but damn it would be cool lol. I was just curious.
Thanks for the info, but hey... there are 5 gens of 3sgte? I thought there were 4. All first 3 were in Celicas (2nd and 3rd in the Mr2 either), the 4th was in caldinas but what about the 5th?

5th gens were, IIRC, basically mildly revised versions of the 4th gen - and they were found in the last Caldinas.

[BonzaiCelica]

here are some force induction threads on 4th gen 3sge motors...

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...dtop-turbo.html

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...rbo-no-56k.html

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams-owners-gro...percharger.html

[Neon90424]

I thought the VVTi also played a part in the nonboostability?

[BonzaiCelica]

I thought the VVTi also played a part in the nonboostability?

uhh no way man vvti with boost is awesome. Just take a look at The Supra which was added with VVT-i on both intake and exhaust in 1998???

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jun 29, 2011 - 4:51 PM

[Edophus]

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jun 29, 2011 - 8:56 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

soo running 95 ron on a 3rd gen 3sgte is better than running 95 ron on a 3sge beams. Which means its safer to run 95 ron on 3sgte over beams motor? ya I still have a lot to learn......

[richee3]

uhh no way man vvti with boost is awesome. Just take a look at The Supra which was added with VVT-i on both intake and exhaust in 1998???

Just the intake. Running premium fuel in both the BEAMS and the 3S-GTE prevents detonation. You must use it in the 3S-GTE and I'm not sure about how necessary it is with the BEAMS, but it's highly recommended at the very least.

[delusionz]

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

just because you can doesnt mean you would, the amount of **** you would have to do to get a 3sge reliably running 250hp, for the same time money and effort you'd have a 3sgte reliably running 300hp capability of ... what? 400? 500?

if its compression you want, you can always skim a cylender head

[3WayStunna]

learn about dynamic compression guys, longer duration cams means lower dynamic compression, all else being equal, a higher duration cam can negate a higher compression ratio, in theory, you will shift the power band, but there is no good reason why a na 3s-ge engine cant make great power boosted, infact many make more power per psi, its just you have less tollerence to detonation. Research dynamic compression and ignore idiots is my advice, it isnt clear cut, but you will mostly hear parrots. given cam timing has an effect on dynamic compression, realise that vvti has a dynamic effect on cam timing, and therefore dynamic compression, and if you arent following by this point, probably shut up.

If there was ever any question as to whether or not what you said is true, i think someone would have to take a look at the dno comparisons of 3rd/2nd gen 3sgte's with the 3rd gen intake cam upgrade...you know, running a intake cam on both the intake and exhaust (cam areas) of the 2nd/3rd gen 3sgte.......yes the powerband will shift ( i think it was 200-300rpm to the right last time i saw) but hey its a freakin awesome experiance if you are already pushing your ct26c2 to the limits (imma start calling the ct20b the ct26c2 since that is what toyota has designated it)...