Long term living room project, Looking to build a 10k rpm 3sgte Options

[Neon90424]

Since i have pretty much completed my gt four engine wise. machined and head kit also installed. I feel like building a 10k rpm engine with a 3sgte. I was looking at 3sgte's and I have decided to go with the newer ST215 engine since I have found them cheap on Ebay for 1k, and have it shipped by boat to PY. Going to buy an engine mount and set it up in my living room.

I figure the side intake manifold is better flowing than the 3rd gen and COP system to be nicer for a high rpm flowing engine.

Im looking for advice and tips. My plan goes as follows.

Buy and bring the engine.

Major tear down with about 100 ziplock bags and catalog it.

Clean it completely. turn the pistons and conrods into some sort of table or ashtray or shot glasses.

Take the head apart. polish it. have it machined for .5mm over exhaust valves and 1mm over intake valves.

looking to go shimless bucket. TI retainers and BC valve springs.

machine the crank lightening it up as much as possible without unbalancing it and compromising its strength.

eagle rods and cp pistons. acl bearings.

maybe make a custom aluminum oil pan? I need advice on the oil pump and flow for this engine.

I will set up a nice Injector dynamics based fuel delivery system that can handle the injection speed for 10k rpm.

polish the intake manifold runners...


I need True and false advice. I read that the oil pump the st215 engine has is higher flowing and water pump as well.

the head has better flow and the manifold as well... The exhaust manifold and turbo is going to be sold.

This is going to be a 400-500 hp engine. the donor car is still not decided to me as I will complete the engine first and I will do this real slow say a year or 2 So i might pick up and ST185 and drop this in.

thoughts ideas advice? flame?

[Neon90424]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-Toyota-Celica-...d69&vxp=mtr


That seems to be the most reasonably healthy engine I found...cheap too...

[delusionz]

my favourite st205 on youtube of all time, probably posted before, but damn those revs!

celica st205, 2nd and 3rd gear acceleration, KKK29 turbocharger

3rd gear, celica st205 gt-four, standard turbo, showing tacho

[match220]

If you are going to try for 10k rpms, then fuel delivery should be a main concern. I thought about running dual injectors on each cylinder, mainly so I could use stock injectors for cheap, but also to prolong the injectors by not pushing them to their max. Just lengthen their dwell time at higher RPMs, you would have twice the time to do it since the injectors would be working at half the normal rate. It's pretty easy to set it up in the Autronic SM4, you just configure the engine as a v8 instead of a 4 cylinder and the two injectors on each cylinder will take turns firing on each revolution. And running the individual coils won't change anything because the computer can be configured to run a wasted spark setup (how a v8 would be configured if it has only 4 coils with two plug wires off of each one). For coils I used 1.8T Jetta coils, but some years were bad. 00/01 coils are the better ones, after that they keep failing. I wouldn't mind helping you if you get an Autronic SM4 ecu to run it, it has to be an SM4 though, not SM2 or SMC. I'll even email you my wire diagram that I made that shows you what wires to connect on the autronic to what pins on the sensor plugs, but it only applies to the SM4. A side effect of running the dual injector setup is the tach will be cut in half, since the Autronic ecu will see two revolutions as one revolution. So your 10k RPM limit will be hard to explain as you have trouble hitting 5k...then 5.5k..haha. And for your two injectors per cylinder to be bolted in, you will have to look into having an intake manifold machined to accept the second set of injectors. That's how I would do it..but there are other ways...less expensive ways. Dual injectors would rock though!

I'm planning on putting another youtube video up tomorrow on the progress of my car, I'll touch on some sensor wire-ins a little bit. The Autronic only needs TPS, IAT, Coolant Temp, Timing signal (I used an old distributor), and IACV to work, I also wired in a wideband o2 though.

I would imagine since you have a 10k rpm goal then price isn't an issue?

[Neon90424]

Nah price isnt really an issue since I have pretty much blown about 40k on my Gt four trying to restore it to baller status and let me tell you. Half of the cost comes from interest rates from online buying, courier fees and mechanics!!!

so Im going to do most of the work myself

[delusionz]

v8 nonsense

1 rail, 2000cc injectors, twin fuel pumps, AN-8 fittings

[Special_Edy]

The biggest issue is the physical limitations of steel. Youre going to need to replace all the moving parts within the valve train and lower end with higher quality parts.
The fact that its turbocharged will also add strain, maybe you should choose between forced induction or a high revving engine. Combining the two may not be as effective.

This post has been edited by Special_Edy: Dec 28, 2012 - 1:33 PM

[Neon90424]

well if I wanted a high revving N/A i would buy a honda...Ive seen the ST185 that hits 10k rpm like its no ones business So I know it can be done...

The valve train will be completely replaced, my concerns are oil pressure, cavitation, fuel delivery and valve float...

Yeah i was figuring the ID 2000s and a larger fuel rail, and a big fuel pump or 2 inline pumps on a swirlpot... the FUELAB pump in my Gt4 is deafening, very very loud and 4 were brought to PY, 3 of em failed on Ethanol, my car was ready a year later so I am crossing fingers it wont die on me. its on LOW speed only which is around 60 psi.


I would use the Fueltech FT-400 EMS same as my car... very nice and cool factor touch screen...

This post has been edited by Neon90424: Dec 28, 2012 - 6:09 PM

[presure2]

lots of silly talk in this thread.
think light.
for 10k rpm, REAL light.
think dry sump oiling system.
a single rail with the ID's and your choice of the several fuel pumps that will handle your hp goal, the pump is no factor in the rpm target, your only worry IMO with the fuel system should be response time of the injectors, which i imagine will be no issue with anything quality out there.
deliusions has the right idea as far as fuel.
the keys with reving that high are gonna be valvetrain and oiling issues, and then once you sort the motor, shifting an E153 (or 154f if you go AWD) @ 10k rpm is not exactly smooth as butter..lol
most of the guys on mr2oc start having issues above 8500 or so, there are a few that have run it up a bit higher.
If your really serious about reving that high, start researching eric hux, and hux racing, your gonna wanna talk to him about the dry sump stuff (AFAIK, he's one of the only ones whos built 3s' on this side of the earth that run up there..lol)

[Neon90424]

yeah I was guessing I would have to go Dry Sump. Unfortunately I dont think Moroso makes 3rd gen oil pans...which means I might have to make a custom oil pan.
fuel sys. isnt that much of a problem. as you said... the head has to be really meticulously put together with 1zz buckets...272 cams to take advantage of high breathing. ill look up hux. thx manny!

[BonzaiCelica]

10k seems way to high. not even the guys can reach the 9,200rpm. Perhaps the only one might be the rotary engine can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MgN_vvneOk

[Neon90424]

I don't think 10k to be absurd, 15k yes ...11k pushing it....but a 10k redline seems realistic to me. I believe working on rotary engines to be the biggest pain imaginable with finding engine parts and available people that actually know how to work on them as opposed to the sea of info on piston engines...expensive too.

anyone got a near dead 3sgte they can rev to 10k and see what dies first?

[delusionz]

im thinking this is going to be a 1/4 mile only motor, upshifting will be okay, downshifting will be a bitch and driving around in 1st and 2nd gears on the road is just obnoxious lol

[Bladey]

Revving to 10k is just great but you need to think

How am i going to make power up there? Hence EXTENSIVE head work is going to be needed, cams your looking at i'd say 304 degree duration, and a lot of lift. that will be the key to power if it was n/a but since its turbo you need to think what turbo is going to make power up that high as well? and no lag.

Also the key to getting to to rev will be weight/ balacing light weight rods pistons and cranks, also flywheel will have to be light as hell and balanced insanely well. also dry sump will be a must, got to remove any unwanted weight from the engine its self

i honestly don't see the point in high revving turbo cars but each there own

[Neon90424]

I think the black top oil pump with a vacuum pump custom sheetmetal sump and external oil cooler system would be cost effective rather than blowing a ton of money on a complicated moroso setup...which has to be belt run in a tight bay....

i hope 272 cams are enough...they seem to pull very hard to redline in my 205... as to the turbo...a large wastegate should be able to take care of the excess pressure that would overspin the turbo and I could see myself getting a gt3076 maybe or the gt3071 depending on what spool i am looking for I can always remove the EFR 6758 from my car and try it on this build but my guess is probably, nut job spool and probably will keep pushing at 10krpm but the waste gate will struggle... and its VERY EXPENSIVE to even imagine what flat foot shifting would do to this turbo at 10 k rpm


High rpm turbo car = Instant boost on every gear shift when you fall north of 3k

This post has been edited by Neon90424: Dec 31, 2012 - 10:52 PM

[Neon90424]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8OQCHG__6M


It can be done...

[Neon90424]

The 1az has a bore and stroke of 86mm and a forged steel crankshaft. i wonder if its lighter than a 3s crank and ifit would fit... http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?it...nid=71776603374

[playr158]

its possible....

but WHY.....what is the point?! what do you plan on using this for?

just building for 10k is pointless....Find a purpose and build a motor to fit the purpose.

[Special_Edy]

I hope you have a comfortable pickup truck to tow this thing back and forth to the racetrack, because Im sure it will be a turd in traffic.

[Neon90424]

Well i figured i'd buy a cheap st185 and throw the engine in there and have a car that can keep high revs/boost through corners...

i have a daily driver already and a weekend warrior...I guess I want to do it for the same reason that people make portapotty go karts...