Onnaj's 1998 Celica ST to 4AGE 20V Blacktop conversion, Next project: C160 LSD 6-speed gearbox :) Options

[onnaj]

Follow my topic cause in the next months i'm going to put a 4AGE 20V Blacktop engine in my 1998 Celica 7AFE. I just love the noise and revs of the Blacktop. I was also doubting about the Beams, but that engine was much more expensive, so the Blacktop wil be the one for me at the moment. Thought also about the 1MZ-FE, but it hasn't been done a lot in Holland and the engines cannot be find over here.

So i've order the blacktop with all the ancillaries, i think at least, and through club4ag.com i've ordered an uncut wiring harness and ECU from a 6 speed m/t. I'm going to use my own C52 gearbox.

So will be continued soon.....

This post has been edited by onnaj: Aug 28, 2013 - 6:28 AM

[Smaay]

you telling me there are no camrys, RX300, ES300, Solaras over there.

[Nihil]

About blacktop - are you going to swap 7A-FE for 4A-GE, or are you going to make a hybrid of both - 7A-GE?

you telling me there are no camrys, RX300, ES300, Solaras over there.

I think that these cars are pretty rare here in EU, especially Lexus brand... I rarely see a Lexus on the road :S

[richee3]

What about a Toyota Harrier? Asking simply because a Harrier and RX 300 are one and the same.

onnaj- Good luck with the swap! Post plenty of pictures.

[Dutch951]

Interested in following this swap! Hope all goes well for ya!

[onnaj]

you telling me there are no camrys, RX300, ES300, Solaras over there.

Yes there are camrys over here but almost all came with either the 2.2 and the newer with the 2.4 engines. The rx300 has been sold here but there are very very little, so costs are really high.

What do you guys pay then for a complete v6 with ecu, wiring, etc?

In the beginning I'm planning to do the normal 4age swap, not the 7age because there's a lot more involved doing that.

Pictures will come asap!

[onnaj]

This is how the car is at the moment:











I'm not going to do much about the outside of the car. I just love it the way it is. I don't like big spoilers, my nose touching the road again and again, etc.

This post has been edited by onnaj: Feb 22, 2013 - 8:51 AM

[onnaj]

I've bought an old 7afe (without airco ) harness to play with before i'm going to cut the one in the car.

Here some photo's:
The complete wiring which has been cut in the engine compartment, a few inches from the firewall hole:


The ECU connectors:


The .... connectors, don't know yet what they are for:


The cut harness with (from what i remember is) the IAT connector:

I'm not sure of i can do a lot with this old harness, but i think it wouldn't harm to have some spare cables and connector by hand.

Now hopefully someone can help me out with finding the wiring diagrams for both the 4AGE 20V blacktop and 7AFE Celica. The engine is going to be picked up tomorrow so more pics to follow!

[onnaj]

I've been very busy with cleaning and tearing down the engine apart. What a sludge it has. Some people never seen so much sludge in any engine at all. They all say that it was used for short distances and hadn't have any regular maintenance at all or at least very little.

I'm going to bring my head, cams and bottom end to a shop that has a special washer for these parts. I don't want any sludge in my oil passages.

I've already cleaned the cam bridge, cam cover, cams, etc with brake cleaner, furnace cleaner and 60 degrees high pressure engine clearance. Didn't use the last one on my cams though

Check my imageshack album for the 'blacktop tearing apart and rebuild' here.


I've ordered a lot of parts like:
1) Distributor cap
2) Rotor
3) Engine overhaul gasket kit
4) Water pump
5) Oil pump
6) Complete timing belt kit, with new tensioner cause they tend to fail when they're getting old
7) Coil and igniter
8) Spark plugs
9) Spark plug wires, not genuine but Seiwa. Hopefully they'll do the job
10) Clutch disc
11) Clutch pressure plate
12) Silvertop flywheel (couldn't get a blacktop anywhere...this one weighs 1kg more )

Besides that i'm going to order piston rings, crankshaft and conrod bearings. But i need to know if the rehone can be done without needing oversize rings. I also need to know which number the bearings have and for that i have to check the engine again for the numbers. And i have to sell my turbokit for extra money (so check the sell adds )

I have to admit that i'm happy that i first opened the cam cover! My idea was to just get the engine, put it into the engine bay and drive, but i don't think that would get my far. With this ammount of sludge a problem (oil usage for example) has to appear very soon.

So a tip for everyone who's doing a swap. Double your money!! You don't want to just put an engine like this in and drive. This will cost you more but if you drive normally and respect operating temperatures your engine will last another 200.000 km for sure!

And today i talked to a friend which happen to work at the DAF garage in Holland. DAF builds trucks especially for europe, don't know about the USA. He's busy with writing and making schemes / wiring diagrams for the engine, chassis, etc so he'd really like to help me with the wiring. That's handy for sure!
I don't think the wiring will be a bitch. The 7AFE and 4AGE 20V Blacktop are a lot the same! I can and will use the 7AFE harness and solder, repin, add extra wires (for example the VVT), use the 4AGE 3th connector (cause it's different), etc and then it'll be ready. Hopefully about 6-8 hours.

ps: If you'd like me to put the photo's here directly instead of a link to imageshack, then please let me know. Any alternatives to imageshack are welcome also!

This post has been edited by onnaj: Mar 4, 2013 - 6:07 PM

[celica74]

While you have the motor out and rebuilding it, i would suggest putting some money into building the motor. Alot of guys have gone this same route (swap 7a for a 4a) and have been displeased because the 4a was designed for a lighter car then the celica. They just dont have torque. But the 20v breath much better then the 7a and isnt hard at all to get some power out of them. Like suggested before you could build the bottom end of your old 7a and use the 4a head. Still have the torque of the 7a and then some. Either way you look at it is a big undertaking just to even swap in a 4a. Good luck and keep us updated.

[onnaj]

Maybe i'm going to do that in the future. That's too expensive for me at the moment and i think there's not enough information on the internet on the 7AFE combined with the Blacktop head. I know when doing it right, with good engine management i should be able to get around 190 horses.

I think the AE111 Levin weighs about the same as the Celica ST, so i think the result won't be that bad. Don't forget when i'm going to change to the 3SGE and gearbox that this certainly adds some weight! Especially when changing to the Beams with LSD Gearbox.

For me the Blacktop is enough for the moment. I'm going to keep my old engine, so i mights use it later on for a 7AGE.

[Smaay]

your logic escapes me but best of luck to you

[BonzaiCelica]

how much does a helical lsd add to the s54 transmission?

[onnaj]

I don't know exactly, but if i'd buy a Celica 3SGE over here (the 176hp version) it weighs about 60-70 kg more.

[onnaj]

So i got a lot of stuff in today again

1) Pistons (friend of mine media glass blasted one piston. Even with low pressure this isn't a good idea...the glass gets in the piston and will come out when hot and then damage the bearing, or destroy the engine!)
2) Piston rings
3) Crankshaft bearings
4) Rod bearings
5) Thrust washers
6) Head bolts (used the 4AGE 16V exhuast ones)
7) Some other little stuff

Today i've painted half of the block and some support brackets, tomorrow the rest will be painted except the head, cam cover, etc.

So i'm almost ready to build it up again. Costed a lot, but the engine is almost completely new in a few weeks. And best i'm enjoying the work, despite the money it costs!

Photos will be added soon!

This post has been edited by onnaj: Mar 18, 2013 - 1:12 PM

[delusionz]

sorry to go off topic but forget 7age, when you build a custom motor its very expensive and time consuming. for the money/time you could build anything you like, it would be a shame if the end result was 160bhp@6000 (yes thats right, a 7a bottom end wont like revving to 8000 without the aid of a turbo) there are several cheaper,easier&more powerful routes with the S series engine like our chassis were originally designed to use.

A series is a complete step backwards for us, the 7AG belongs to the Corolla as it brings them displacement that they cant get from any other place. The ideal setup for them is the 7AF block with GZE pistons and rods, blacktop head and GT28 - GT30 series turbocharger. Obviously this would be stupid for us when the 3SGTE has been here all along.

[delusionz]

anyways, nice to see a blacktop in a Celica, sounds novel. could be pretty cool

[onnaj]

sorry to go off topic but forget 7age, when you build a custom motor its very expensive and time consuming. for the money/time you could build anything you like, it would be a shame if the end result was 160bhp@6000 (yes thats right, a 7a bottom end wont like revving to 8000 without the aid of a turbo) there are several cheaper,easier&more powerful routes with the S series engine like our chassis were originally designed to use.

A series is a complete step backwards for us, the 7AG belongs to the Corolla as it brings them displacement that they cant get from any other place. The ideal setup for them is the 7AF block with GZE pistons and rods, blacktop head and GT28 - GT30 series turbocharger. Obviously this would be stupid for us when the 3SGTE has been here all along.

I don't agree ofcourse with the 4AGE being a step backwards. Don't forget the Blacktop was on the market since 1996, so it has some new technics, like the VVT. Our engine, the 7AFE was there from 1993 i believe? Getting the car from 115 horses to 160-165 horses isn't exactly what i call a step back. I think it's nice while it's a light engine, it's NA and it's passing the 100 hp per litre!

Now here some additional photos by the way:

The package with all the new stuff:




Painted brackets:




All painted with special Hammerite Matt Black paint, which should be safe to about 650 degrees. The engine itselves is also matt black already, so it's a black bottom with blacktop

[rave2n]

All painted with special Hammerite Matt Black paint, which should be safe to about 650 degrees. The engine itselves is also matt black already, so it's a black bottom with blacktop

I like your choice in coloring =)

[onnaj]

All painted with special Hammerite Matt Black paint, which should be safe to about 650 degrees. The engine itselves is also matt black already, so it's a black bottom with blacktop

I like your choice in coloring =)

thanks!

I have to add to the previous post that also the fuel consumption of the 4age is a lot better then the 3SGE of V6, thats also important over here, where just 1 litre, yes 1 litre costs about $2.20!! (2.20 * 3,785 litres = $8,327 a gallon!!)