3sge 3. gen. tuning Options

[TARManiAC]

Hi. I´m about to do a complete overhaul on my 3. gen 3sge. Bearings, toothbelt, seals, gaskets, and pistonrings. And while I´m at it I thought, hey why not have
some fun at the same time. So now I got St205 brakes and a s54-06d gearbox waiting for installation too. It´s making 188 hp on 95 octane (we have 98 in this
country) with a decat and KN panel filter + an alu lightweight crankpulley.

I ´ve done a lot of research on this engine and I think I have a pretty good Picture of what I want. I´m going for re-shaped cams, a good maschinist shop will make
them into 264*. I´m going to up the compression by shaving off the head, install a Fidanza flywheel, make a cai into the oe box along with supporting mods like
Magnecor leads a wideband lambda sensor and perhaps an adjustable fpr or high capacity fuelpump. No piggyback or standalone at the moment, but it is on the list for future mods.
My thoughts are:

1. how much can I shave off the head? I once read somewhere (can´t find it anymore) that 1mm is ok. My concerns here are mainly detonation,
but also piston/valve contact (but I don´t think so as this engine is a non interference engine), and cambelt slack.

2. will the oe green injectors be able to deliver enough fuel? I don´t know how much they are rated at.

Thank you for reading

[Smaay]

I do NOT recommend shaving the head and or block to raise compression. If you want to raise compression, get higher compression pistons

[TARManiAC]

I do NOT recommend shaving the head and or block to raise compression. If you want to raise compression, get higher compression pistons

Ok.

Reason??

[mi645]

What smay said. Its better that way, 1 u will still have room to shave if necessary, for example u warp the head common by blowing head gaskets or overheating.
2 for timing belt reasons to keep factory tension specs for the timing belt.
3 if u shave it too much, i believe that engine will go from non interf. To an interf. Engine.
Other ways for high comp is a thinner head gasket or higher comp pistons.

[TARManiAC]

Thanks for the comments.

I´m already aware of all of the above possible problems. I haven´t come across a thinner head gasket for this engine. OE is 1mm. I know there are high comp pistons, but a friend og mine will mill the head for free, and I can spend my Money on something else like better suspension.

Anyone in here with the knowledge of tuning 3. gen. 3sge´s and milling Down the head, and the injector capacity ? feel free to contribute to my project :-)

[Smaay]

do what you want, i just gave my advise

[mi645]

Ok, in that case mill away! Lol
And enjoy ur build!

[Rusty]

I don't understand why European owners keep getting bhp dyno readings.

If the engine is putting out a remarkable 188bhp from 95, a decat & panel filter why is it getting an overhaul? If you are opening it up, open it up once & do it right

First off remove the aluminium lightweight crank pulley - As it puts the balance of the crank out of spec.


Cam specs are a bit vague, what Deg @ 1mm lift? are you increasing cam lift?

Injectors, FPR & pump are fine as is.

Any porting of the head? Valve job? What extractors are you using? Balance crank?

You need to be thinking about what ecu you are running either piggyback, reflashed or standalone, a you will not get the best reults from the your modifications without it.

What will be the new rev limit? Power, compression goals?

Info on FPR, when to buy & not buy them.

Aftermarket fuel pressure regulators (FPR’s) are one of the most popular items people buy when starting to modify their car. The truth is that aftermarket FPRs are more often than not unnecessary and the factory FPR will do the job just fine. Let’s have a look at when you should be fitting an aftermarket FPR so you don’t waste your money:

If you are fitting a mild fuel system upgrade such as a Walbro pump and/or larger injectors then the factory regulator will cope quite happily.
If you are getting near the limit of your injectors and just need a little more fuel to get by, an adjustable FPR can be used to increase the fuel pressure and hence the flow of the injectors. NOTE: This is only suitable for achieving small increases in injector flow of around 5-10%
If you are fitting an aftermarket fuel rail kit, then usually there will be no provision for the stock FPR. In this case you may have no choice but to use an aftermarket unit.
If you are installing a large fuel system with bigger lines then the factory FPR may be too restrictive resulting in uncontrollable fuel pressure. In this case a higher flowing aftermarket FPR is the solution.
When buying an adjustable FPR, stay away from the cheap-ass Chinese products. While these may save you a few bucks over a quality name-brand product, inconsistent fuel pressure can also cause expensive engine damage.
If you have read the tips above and you have decided that you do need a FPR then get in touch with us. STM can supply a wide range of adjustable FPRs to suit just about any engine combination or power level and we can advise you on the best product to suit your requirements and budget.

[mi645]

Thanks rusty for explaining.

[TARManiAC]

Yearh thanks for the good info on fpr´s Rusty. Sorry but I don´t know why horsepower is published the way it is here in europe. Those were the numbers I got from a free rolling-road day a couple of years ago. So why bother fixing a good strong engine you ask. Well, because it´s old, has nearly 280.000 km´s under the belt, I want to use it as a daily driver for many years to come, and the most important reason: I might just take up my racing career again. It needs at least new gaskets, seals and cambelt. Then I decided on a lightweight flywheel and I thought, heck why not take the engine out and get rid of all the rust and gunk and give it a paint job. Then I found out I might as well stick some new bearings and rings in there. It´s evolving ;-)

The alu crank pulley has been there for more than 40.000 km´s so it´s staying

As for the camshafts, I just asked a renowned Company if they could grind them to 264* since I´ve heard these would still be ok for daily driving. No serious porting apart from the intake and exhaust ports. no valvejob apart from cleaning and adjusting. Oe exhaustmanifold. No crank balancing. I know somekind of uprated ecu gives so much more (had them in my former race-engines), but for the moment I´m going with a wideband and a knock-link for safe tuning. Power? let´s see, but I wouldn´t be surprised to see 200+. Compression? you tell me:-) but I think something like 11,5:1 is ok. But still the big question is:

How much to mill off?

NO you can NOT just mill away, very bad advise there.

btw, is it possiblel to hook up a wideband and a knock-link to the existing wiring loom, so I don´t need to install extra sensors?

This post has been edited by TARManiAC: Apr 27, 2015 - 9:43 AM

[mi645]

I only said mill away because. He wants to just get high comp, he doesnt care for interf or not. Also any machine shop will know that the head cant be milled tona certain point. Its on the head u cant miss it.
Mill away!!!!! Lol.

[Rusty]

To add to the list oil pump, water pump, tensioners, clutch, flywheel bolts...

With the alu crank pulley, the crank sees more unnecessary movement & vibration that it was designed for. The factory one is a balancer. Yes it may have lasted for +40,000km's, doesn't mean it hasn't done damage to the engine.


What "renowned Company" for the camshaft work? How much increase in cam lift? Be careful with 'advertised duration' specs too as cam company's take the measurements at different points to make their camshafts appear bigger.

Best to stick with @1mm or @0.050" valve lift specs, so you can compare.



Safe tuning? There is no uprated ecu or piggyback, you are still using the factory ecu, so you cannot make any changes.

The 'KnockLink sensor' is just that... a sensor to detect if there is knock, then flash a light if there is knock. Have you been to Link's website? It doesn't wire into the ECU.
A wideband sensor is sensor that allows the air/fuel ratio to be measured. Again not really useful since you have no tuning abilities.

But as you said you don't want extra sensors, so you don't need these anyway

[TARManiAC]

The add list I´m aware of, but thanks for the reminder.

Theres no damage to my engine. No strange noises and oil is almost clear when it´s changed every 10K km´s. Also NO metallic flakes sticking to the sumpplug.

Unless you are familiar with racing Companies in denmark you wouldn´t know them. It´s a Company that I trust and I tell them what I want and they make it from
the oe cams. I told them cams should still be streetable, and since I´ve learned that mild cams at circa 264* are just that, that´s what I told them to make.

Yes I´m aware what ecu I´m using, and I can still make adjustments. NO, not with the ecu. But there are other ways of adjusting. History of tuning
engines started way before there was something called ecu´s :-)

I know what a Knock-Link is, used it in my WRX some years ago. Same with wideband. Those are for monitoring, just as I´ve explained. What I asked was, if I
could hook-up these with the existing oe sensors.


mi645 I really think you need to start from the beginning. In my first post I specifically mention my reasons for asking how much can be taken of the head:
cambelt tension and piston/valve contact. So read away LOL. BTW what do you mean by "he"??


BUT I still haven´t heard from the NA tuning gurus in here. How much material can safely be taken off the head of a 3. gen- 3sge??

Anyone knows where Pasqual went?

[mi645]

Dont know man. Just a mechanic. Fix stuff. Maint and repair. Im not the kind to completely modify.
help ya.
Do what u gotta do.
Do ur measurements.
Calculate the cc of the head and how much it will be affected by milling the head.
What compression ratio r u aiming for?
R u gonna modify the quench design in the chambers? R u going with bigger valvea?
R u modifying piston heads at all?
How high do u wanna rev? What octane rating u plan to use? 91? Most likely cant go over 11:1 or 12:1 cr.
Other wise ull knock and ping. Alright mr enginer? Do the math b4 u get into it. What head gasket size u plan to use?
Etc etc etc. i was just trying to help. Im not here to judge or disc. U decide what u want to do.
Im just giving u opinion. Read the factory manual. Im sure the specs of machining the head wil be in there.
Toyota is not that stupid...
R u also running factory ignition. Dizzy set up?

[TARManiAC]

"Toyota is not that stupid"" WTF. WHO said that they are? Not me for sure. I love my Toyota :-)

What octane do I plan to use? The best one of cause. We have 99 here. I´m pretty sure the factory manual doesn´t say anything bout tuning your engine. Or how is that mister mechanic? btw thats some wild increments in cr you are operating there: "let´s stick to 11:1 or 12:1" Well what if lets say, 11,1:1 was just on the edge og knock. Wouldn´t 12:1 be just a liiitle bit too much??

I have my head milled and my cams are reground + I´m porting my head as I found some possibilities in there. Now I just need to put it all back together and stick my st205 brakes on it and I´m track ready :-)

Maybe I´ll be back to report later on if the interest is there.

[mi645]

Cool! Keep us updated. And im just a lube tech sorry.
And i what i said is, the specifications should be on the manual, i didnt say it tells u how to modify ur engine... -_-
And y do u need st205 brakes on ur NA car? I have st205 brakes on my car, im jw, cuz u def dont need it, and u shouls def get a seat and hearness, i can tell u, it was the best mod u can use for the track.
And so ur like a master mechanic or something? U ported ur own head? So ur like a proffesional right? Just curious so maybe u can port my head and build my engine for me, and mill my head. So let me ask u, whats ur cc right now?
Assuming all 4 cylinders r the same? Unless ud rather me ask individually.

[TARManiAC]

Well not much news here. Had my injectors cleaned and tested and they are fine for the job with the addition of an adjustable fpr. Also bought a new clutch. New lightweight flywheel and engine Work are Next.

Yeah a proper racing seat and 6 belt harness is good when racing. Had Corbeau and Trw when I used to race a couple of years ago. But this car is also a dd so won´t be getting those toys for it.

Which also Means I have the Money for a proper adjustable suspension. Oh why do I need new brakes? cos the oe ones are **** and will never survive a track day. Nor will the car or I

[TARManiAC]

Regarding your head: yeah just ship it over I´ll gladly mill and port it :-) But no I´m no pro. Don´t think you can find somewhere I told anyone I ever was :-) But
what I do, usually Works.

This post has been edited by TARManiAC: Jan 28, 2016 - 7:53 AM