Regarding Charlie97L's post on SupraTT engine swap, A lot of misinformation in the post... Options

[Turbo_Dennis]

Hello,
I'll start off by saying that im a Toyota Supra owner, and i've always liked 6g Celicas also, and i've been looking to get one as a daily driver. I've been looking for general info on this car and thats how i found this site. I'd like to congratulate you guys on making such a great site with a lot of good info.

I read Charlie97L's post (sticky) on the Supra TT engine swap out of curiosity, and i was AMAZED to find so much misinformation in the post. My post may be deleted for some reason (im not familiar with your forum policies), but i dont see a reason for it - people like you deserve to know the truth.
When i read Charlie97L's comparrison between the 2JZ-GTE (Supra's engine) and the 3S-GTE i was stunned. I've had experience with both engines, and comparing them is like comparing a Chevy Corvette to a Chevy Cavalier.

"You may think the twin turbo Supra engine is hot ****, but the 3S-GTE can eat it for breakfast"
This has got to be some of the funniest stuff i've read in a LONG time. Lets examine all his reasoning in detail:

"1) Yes, the 2JZ has 320 HP stock, and the 3S-GTE has 225-255 HP (depending on the year). However the 3S-GTE has more potential than the 2JZ."

Much more potential? Are you on drugs? 2JZ-GTE is absolutely superior to 3S-GTE in EVERY category except weight. 2JZ-GTE's potential is virtually unlimited, as its being proved right now, as i type. There is not a single number out there that accurately describes what the engine is capable of, the bar is being rased every month. If you talk to ANY experienced race mechanic, they will all tell you one thing - one of the most important factors that determines an engine's potential is displacement. There are other important factors also, such as engine geometry and design, but i can assure you that the 2JZ isnt behind the 3S in any of those categories. I will provide some hard facts later in this post.


"2) It is interesting to note, that in almost every instance when a tuning company has built a Supra to race, they put in a 3S-GTE. Why? You can get a lot more HP out of it. (I know, if you can do this, why can’t you put the 2JZ in the Celica? It is because you can mount the 3S-GTE longitudinally in the HUGE Supra engine bay, lots of room to work.)"

Are you even serious? Like i said above, the ONLY advantage that the 3S has over the 2JZ is the weight. That is why in SOME (very few) applications 3S was used in a Supra. 3s, being lighter, will change the weight distribution on the Supra, aiding in the cornering abilities. Thats why most exotics put the engine in the back, to make the front lighter, giving more traction at the drive wheels, and increasing the cornering abilities.
No offence, but "Why? You can get a lot more HP out of it." (3sgte) is a statement that i would expect from a person smoking crack daily for the last 20 years. More HP out of the 3sgte? If you ever bothered to check any Supra boards or information sites, you would soon find out that 2JZ is capable of numbers that even big block V8 domestic owners are jelaous of. If you go to a supra board, such as www.supraforums.com , and go to the "Dyno Tuning" section (i think you can only view it if you register), you will see NUMEROUS cars making WAY more HP than the 3S-GTE has EVER seen. 1000RWHP is becoming a standart for the 2JZ these days, and some cars such as Saad Saad's supra made 1450RWHP, and Marko recently made 1520rwhp through an auto tranny. Thats right, 1520 horses at the rear wheels through an automatic tranny... thats approximately 25% drivetrain loss, putting him in 1900 crank hp range. And thats on a 100% street car with full interior, ac, and sterio system. Im not even going to mention the race 2jz engines used in cars such as Bullish Racing Solara, making over 2000hp, and running 6-second times in the 1/4 mile. Show me any 3sgte making anywhere CLOSE to that power, and ill delete this whole post. In fact, im willing to bet that there isnt a 3sgte engine in the world making as much power, as the 2jzgte can make on BONE STOCK internals. Tim Iacoli recently put down 1017RWHP on a 100% stock Toyota bottom end(stock pistons, rods, crank, etc). That was no fluke either - before that Mike Carlin held the stock internals record at 980rwhp, and people with less than 800rwhp dont even start looking into any modification to the bottom end.
I often hear stupid statements such as "Supras are dyno queens". This is also complete b.s., as the car mentioned above, Marko's car ran 8.4 sec in the 1/4 mile on his old setup, putting down only about 1200rwhp. With the new setup mid-high 7 second times are expected. And let me mention it again, its a 100% street car with mo modifications to the chasis, stock sized tires, full interior, etc. Paul Efantis ran a 7.9 sec time aslo, on drag radials. HKS Supra ran high 6-second times on their tubed Supra, and Bullish Racing are running low 6 second times on their 2JZ powered Solaras. Hows that for a dyno queen? I can give you much more examples, but i dont think its needed. There is actually a VERY SMALL number of 3S powered Supras, all of which were build for very specific purposes.


"3) The 3S-GTE has won multiple World Rally Championships for Toyota, and Rallying is really the most What has the 2JZ done, besides been in the Fast and the Furious? Nothing."

Thats right, nothing. Except maybe multiple world records on the dragstrip. Also pushing 60psi of boost, making over 600hp/liter is a more strenuous test you can put on an engine, in my opinion. Funny of you to mention the Fast and the Furious, where the engine that was used was actually a 2JZ-GE , being the non turbocharged version of the 2JZ-GTE (hence the lack of "T" in the code, which stands for "Turbocharged") If you look closely when Jesse "Popps the hood", even you can probably notice the lack of Turbo, and the pipe from the intake filter leading straight to the intake manifold. Thats actually my favourite scene in the movie, when Jesse looks at the Naturally Aspirated Supra engine bay and says "Lets see what we got here... a T-78 Turbo.........etc"
This again proves how knowledgeable you are in the 2JZ-GTE department.


"4) While I’m on the F&F, Supras are not 10-second cars stock. And it’s going to take a lot more than “15 grand” to make a 2JZ hit the 10 second mark."

Another bull **** statement. (how unexpected, huh?). It takes way less than 15 grand to make the 2jzgte Supra run 10-second times. This is due to a fact that a lot of the parts dont need to be upgraded, as they would need to be on other cars/engines, such as the 3s. You need approx 600rwhp to run 10sec times in the Supra, and at that power level you dont need ANY modifications to the long block, or the drivetrain. The v-160 tranny that the Supra uses has proven itself to handle over 1000rwhp, same for the driveshaft and the differential. The only major mods you'd need to run 10sec times would be a good turbo upgrade, better fuel system (fuel pump, injectors, afpr, maybe bigger lines and fuel rail), full exhaust, some piggy-back engine controllers and nice, fat rubber at the back. This would run you WAY less than 15 grand. In fact, running 10 seconds might be possible on the stock fuel system, which as you probably know (since you are a 2JZ expert) consists of 255LPH fuel pump and 550cc injectors. I cant think of any cars right now running 10 sec on the stock fuel system, but its possible in theory if you really push it to the limit. There is actually a third generation Supra, powered by the 7M-GTE engine (which is inferior to the 2JZ) running 10.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile for about 12000$ , including the price of the car ($4K for the car, and $8K in mods).


In conclusion i'd like to say that im in no way bashing the 3S-GTEm its a GREAT powerplant, no question about it. It outperforms many (if not all) engines in its class, and certanly has great potential. But the 2JZ-GTE engine is not in it's class. Comparing a 2.0 4 cylinder to an I6 3.0 liter is just foolish. Not to mention that the 2JZ is nearly a decade newer.

I've spend over an hour writing this, in a hope to add some REAL information to this great site. Being a member of many other automotive boards, it always saddens me to see people without any facts saying stupid things for unaware auto enthusiasts to read.

Thank You
Dennis

[Mr_E]

It's not a good engine because it's mounted the wrong way to drive the front wheels. So you'd need a whole new transmission.

At which point it's a lot easier to build a kit car from the ground up and hang celica panels off it......

(that might not be true)

This post has been edited by Mr_E: Feb 16, 2005 - 12:28 PM

[Fox-N-It2]

It's not a good engine because it's mounted the wrong way to drive the front wheels. So you'd need a whole new transmission.

At which point it's a lot easier to build a kit car from the ground up and hang celica panels off it......

(that might not be true)
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Tube chassis anyone?