Dynojet's number are NOT real and 20% HIGHER Options

[Wolf_tm]

Presure2,

I report publicly your PM:

presure2 wrote:

wolf,
i deleted your post in the dyno registry.
if you dont have a dyno sheet to include, do not post in there.

I wrote in your dyno registry thread because, if you/we want to make a SERIOUS thread, we HAVE all to talk about apples... not apples and oranges.

So we HAVE to specify if our cars were dynoed on a Dynojet's dyno, because these dynos gives 20% higher than real numbers,
and if we want to compare those numbers to the REAL hp, given by the other dyno machines, we HAVE to take away a 20% from Dynojet's numbers.

MOREOVER, we all shoud speak only about SAE CORRECTED, because ambient temperature and atmospheric pressure change A LOT the power output of the SAME engine, so the SAE correction ( that normalizes all the values to 20 deg C. and 1012 millibar ) is necessary if we want to compare numbers picked up in different situation.

Are you saying were not important things to add in the dyno registry thread ?

When I go to the fruiterer and I buy 1 kg of apple, I WANT 1 kg of apple, NOT 0.8 kg because the fruiterer's scales is corrupt .... and 1 kg weighs the SAME ALL OVER THE WORLD because the kilogram, LIKE ANY OTHER UNIT OF MEASUREMENT, are fixed universally.

So Dynojet's dynos are not legally in order, because they give hp's values 20% higher from real.

Do we have to hide this thruth only because you enjoy talk with your friend, or make a signature, about your 235 whp car ?
I'm sorry, but if you dynoed it on a Dynojet, it would be better if you start talking about 190 WHP car.

presure2 wrote:

if you'd like to debate the diffrences between dynojets and other dynos, feel free to start a new thread, and ill post my stock dyno charts to refute your claim.
( i made 115whp in stock form with a 5sfe, almost exactly in line with toyotas listed flywheel #s.)

It seems to me that you DON'T want to understand:
your dyno charts means nothing.

ANYONE in the world that works in this sector, knows that Dynojet's numbers are UNREAL:
every engine engineer, every serious tuner, every serious mechanic, every people that had dynoed a car on different dynos found out that Dynojet's readings are 20% higher !

As I already reported, the dynojet's maker himself WAS OBLIGED TO ADMIT IT... because it was a valutation error EVIDENT TO ANYONE !

David Buschur,
tired of this ANNOYING fact, and you can imagine, given that he his a big and good tuner, that he was tired... because he had to explain to EVERY customers of him that the cars he makes, have not LESS hp than the competitors' ones.... are simply dynoed on a dyno that reads correctly the horsepower...
said:


" We all just need to be clear that Dynojet numbers ARE NOT ACTUAL WHP NUMBERS. If anything the numbers a Dynojet spits out are more closely related to flywheel numbers.

Before anyone opens their mouth to argue the point, the inventor, designer, originator of the Dynojet openly stated this a few months back in 3 major automotive magazines. I actually quoted what he had to say here.
__________________
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com "


It is not enough if it was the "inventor, designer, originator of the Dynojet" to state this ???


Please.... let's talk about REAL NUMBERS... like in every other forum are already doing !
Only here, we still not specify what was the dyno, and that is definitely not serious.

Anywhere else, when talking about dyno numbers, they ALWAYS specify when " DJ " numbers.


Simply have a look HERE: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=210073

" hmmm, this is an interesting thread. There are some more things to define though....such as the dyno that was used, that will make a huge difference in dyno numbers. "

" For consistency, people should be quoting SAE correct numbers. "

It's only one of the thousands thread in which they are talking about power numbers, and EVERYONE knows about the crazy Dynojet readings.


OBVIOUSLY, when we are saying that Dynojet's are 20% higher than real, we are ALWAYS talking about SAE corrected numbers, the only numbers that you can compare.

Otherwise, if we still want to talk in the way it was done till now, with the same INACCURACY and SUPERFICIALITY, no problem... this is what we will getting back from this forum.

Bye.

PS: I think I tell all the members ALL it was needed for them to understand things that are clear to anyone, if you still won't... problem is yours and I'll not add ANY reply to this CLEAR post.

[presure2]

wolf, unfortunatly for you, here in the USA, the dynojet is the #1 dyno.
they are the most consistant.
and like i said to you in my PM, my stock 5sfe proves my point.
the reason i deleted your post, like i said in my PM to you, is because that thread is for posting dyno sheets only, not to compare which dyno is better, or who has the higher #s, or to argue about how this dyno reads diffrently than another.
also, furthermore,
you clearly do not understand how the SAE method works.
SAE is for people who are above sealevel, so that you get consistant readings VS someone who is at sealevel, and other ambient temp factors.
its pretty obvious to me, by looking at the dyno sheets listed, since it SAYS dynojet right at the top of each dynosheet in our registry, who uses dynojets, and who uses whatever else is available.

my 5s made 115whp. by your theory, take 20% off that...that would be under 100whp...you telling me that the 5s, that is rated @ 135hp from the factory puts LESS that 100whp down?
your figures make no sense in the real world testing i have done.
and one more thing.
MR2OC and the one of the most respected 3sgte tuners in the whole USA uses STD correction, unless he is @ altitude.
ill side with him, over you across the pond anyday, just cause bryan would be the guy that would tune my car if ever i were in that situation.
::edit::
i just realized that you call into question my dyno ....
you can question it all you'd like.... i have no need for a pissing contest with you, and for the record that is NOT what our dyno registry is about.

[Wolf_tm]

you clearly do not understand how the SAE method works.
SAE is for people who are above sealevel, so that you get consistant readings VS someone who is at sealevel, and other ambient temp factors.

Funny....

And WHAT do you think it's going to change with altitude.... if not the weight/height of the air's column you have over your head ? Also called atmospheric pressure ?!?

Problem is that the quantity of oxygen, in a fixed volume, not only changes with atmospheric pressure, but EVEN with the air temperature, that affects very much the oxygen density.

Correction based simply on altitude are, then, NOT ENOUGH, because at the same altitude you could have, based on weather variations, different atmospheric pressure and different ambient temperature:

I'd like to remember to everyone that we are going to have a 2.5-3% of power gain every 10 deg C. less.

That's why SAE correction ( that I " clearly do not understand how works " ) normalizes the power output to standard values according to ambient temp and atmospheric pressure ( as I already wrote in the first message )

i just realized that you call into question my dyno ....
you can question it all you'd like.... i have no need for a pissing contest with you, and for the record that is NOT what our dyno registry is about.

I didn't call into question YOUR dyno, or your " 235 DJ whp " signature, I called into question EVERY Dynojet dyno because it reads UNREAL hps.

So if we start to talk seriously of tech things and numbers, like it's on many other forums, we have to know this.


PLEASE READ ANYONE - Thank you.


David Buschur ( www.buschurracing.com ):

" I get this months Hot Rod magazine in the mail. There is an article in it, "The Truth Meter". It's about the Mark Dobeck, the originator of the Dynoet. Basics of the story is he was just building kits to re-jet carbs back in the 1980's. He needed a way to hook a large piece of equipment to a motorcycle and test AFR's and such. Well since that was impossible he decided to make a portable roller to run the motorcycles on to use his test equipment. He then got an idea to make this portable roller calculate HP.

At the time the most powerful motorcycle being built was a V Max. Here is the story from there, just a paragraph:

"Dynojets final number-fudge was arbitrarily based on a number from the most powerful road-going motorcycle of the time, the '85 1,200 cc Yamaha V Max. The VMax had 145 advertised factroy hosepower, which was far above the raw 90 hp number spit out by the formula. " (*not a quote->they are talking about the formula that they came up with to figure out the hp based on the time it took to accelerate the rolls of the dyno they built) "Meanwhile, existing aftermarket torque-cell engine dynamometers delivered numbers that clustered around 120. Always a pragmatist, Dobeck finally ordered his Chief Engineer to doctor the math so tha the Dynojet 100 measured 120 hp for a stock VMax. And that was that: For once and forever, the power of everything else in the world would be relative to the '85 Ymaha VMax and a fudged imaginary number."

Anyway, the proof is in the story about what I was thinking lately. Pick up the March 2006 issue of Hot Rod and read for yourself.

The Dynojet numbers mean basically nothing. It is a tuning tool to make baseline runs from and measure you gains. The actual numbers are inflated and that is FACT based on the inventor himself. "


++++++++++++


" Actually, from the man that designed the Dynojet, I am going to say the Dynojet reads too high.

If you consider the fact that our Mustang Dyno reads 22% lower than Switzer's AWD Dynojet then I would have to say the power that our MD sees to the wheels is pretty darn close.

( PS - Wolf's note:
he assume that its MD readings at the wheels are correct because all the hundreds dynos OF STOCK EVOS he made he is always getting the correct values provided by the manufacturer )

Consider AWD, transfer case, huge rotors, four axles, 4 tires/wheels, transmission, driveshaft etc., that could easily account for 22% loss to the wheels.

The point of this was to point out what the designer himself just put out there for information.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com "

++++++++++++++++++++


More clear now ?

"The Dynojet numbers mean basically nothing. It is a tuning tool to make baseline runs from and measure you gains."

So, and I take your signature as an example, to write " 235 whp", if it was dynoed on a Dynojet, has no sense.

And this is NOT a fight against ANYONE, it's simply a fight for the thruth and common knowledge.

This post has been edited by Wolf_tm: Aug 13, 2006 - 3:58 AM