6-speed trannys???, anyone droppin 6-speed trannys into their car, or have... Options

[mneal2_92788]

has anyone dropped a 6-speed into their celica or if not can you??? if so on either, how much does it cost and where do i find it???

[3WayStunna]

yah, i love to revitalize dead topics, but anywho, isnt the beams altezza engine 6spd......couldnt u use the tranny from that with another 3s series engine??....with the right fabrication i believe it can be done...true i have nothing to back that up, but after reading of ppl doing v6 swaps, supercharged 3sfe
s and many other things, it could be possible right?? or am i jsut talking nonsense??

[InfamousChappy]

I think it's all nonsense.Isn't 5 gears enough shifting already? That and the fact you would probably never use the 6th gear.

Celicas werent engineered with 6 gears in mind. Like most sport compacts, 5spd is the staple.
6 spd trannys are suited more for high power 6,8,10,12 super cars. Where 6 gears is necessary.

Ok so it could be done..But..Why?

[Fastbird]

I think it's all nonsense.Isn't 5 gears enough shifting already? That and the fact you would probably never use the 6th gear.

Celicas werent engineered with 6 gears in mind. Like most sport compacts, 5spd is the staple.
6 spd trannys are suited more for high power 6,8,10,12 super cars. Where 6 gears is necessary.

Ok so it could be done..But..Why?

That makes no sense at all. Look at the S2000, Civic, RSX, 7th Gen Celica, new MR2 (SMT6 tranny), and a handfull of others. All with six speed transmissions (or at least available). It's not a matter of how many times you shift, it's a matter of gearing. With a stock motor (5S or 7A), sure, the Celica needs the steep gearing and final drive ratio as stock to keep it from being too much of a burden to get moving in traffic without impeding others. But, for some of us who do a lot of highway cruising or have upgraded to a 3S-GTE, we don't need that steep gearing. And personally, I HATE driving the celica on the highway for extended periods of time because at 80 MPH, turning 4K rpm's with the custom exhaust droning away is flat out tiring. It would be MUCH nicer to have the same 1-5 gears (or close) with a more overdriven 6th gear for those highway cruising period.

Six speed transmissions aren't just reserved for high power "super cars" like you think. The main reason the six speed came into prominence is the extra overdrive gear for improved fuel economy, be it on a 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engine.

[Kwanza26]

That makes no sense at all. Look at the S2000, Civic, RSX, 7th Gen Celica, new MR2 (SMT6 tranny), and a handfull of others. All with six speed transmissions (or at least available). It's not a matter of how many times you shift, it's a matter of gearing. With a stock motor (5S or 7A), sure, the Celica needs the steep gearing and final drive ratio as stock to keep it from being too much of a burden to get moving in traffic without impeding others. But, for some of us who do a lot of highway cruising or have upgraded to a 3S-GTE, we don't need that steep gearing. And personally, I HATE driving the celica on the highway for extended periods of time because at 80 MPH, turning 4K rpm's with the custom exhaust droning away is flat out tiring. It would be MUCH nicer to have the same 1-5 gears (or close) with a more overdriven 6th gear for those highway cruising period.

Six speed transmissions aren't just reserved for high power "super cars" like you think. The main reason the six speed came into prominence is the extra overdrive gear for improved fuel economy, be it on a 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engine.

*sigh*

Lemme explain a few things. A LOT of new cars are now coming with 6 speeds and 7 speeds... why? Sporty feel and fuel economy. The issue? Well... those trannies were DESIGNED for those engines... therefore the gearing is perfect (or damn near perfect). This topic talks about 'bolting' up a 6 speed... without any understanding of gearing and how it affects performance. Let me give you a good example of BAD BAD gearing. 7th gen Celica GTS. Potentially a 15 FLAT stock car... yet when mated to an older POORLY geared tranny (stock auto)... the car turns into a 17 second slug. 15 seconds versus 17 seconds is like... 5-7 car lengths. While potentially having a 6th gear can be done correctly... can anyone afford a custom gearset? Who wants to pay up for a custom tranny that's gonna cost almost as much as the car itself?

[Fastbird]

That makes no sense at all. Look at the S2000, Civic, RSX, 7th Gen Celica, new MR2 (SMT6 tranny), and a handfull of others. All with six speed transmissions (or at least available). It's not a matter of how many times you shift, it's a matter of gearing. With a stock motor (5S or 7A), sure, the Celica needs the steep gearing and final drive ratio as stock to keep it from being too much of a burden to get moving in traffic without impeding others. But, for some of us who do a lot of highway cruising or have upgraded to a 3S-GTE, we don't need that steep gearing. And personally, I HATE driving the celica on the highway for extended periods of time because at 80 MPH, turning 4K rpm's with the custom exhaust droning away is flat out tiring. It would be MUCH nicer to have the same 1-5 gears (or close) with a more overdriven 6th gear for those highway cruising period.

Six speed transmissions aren't just reserved for high power "super cars" like you think. The main reason the six speed came into prominence is the extra overdrive gear for improved fuel economy, be it on a 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinder engine.

*sigh*

Lemme explain a few things. A LOT of new cars are now coming with 6 speeds and 7 speeds... why? Sporty feel and fuel economy. The issue? Well... those trannies were DESIGNED for those engines... therefore the gearing is perfect (or damn near perfect). This topic talks about 'bolting' up a 6 speed... without any understanding of gearing and how it affects performance. Let me give you a good example of BAD BAD gearing. 7th gen Celica GTS. Potentially a 15 FLAT stock car... yet when mated to an older POORLY geared tranny (stock auto)... the car turns into a 17 second slug. 15 seconds versus 17 seconds is like... 5-7 car lengths. While potentially having a 6th gear can be done correctly... can anyone afford a custom gearset? Who wants to pay up for a custom tranny that's gonna cost almost as much as the car itself?

You don't have to explain anything to me. I fully realize what I said. What you missed was the fact that my rant was based on the fact that I'm running a 3S-GTE and have no need or desire to turn 4K RPM's on the highway and certainly don't need such steep gearing to get the car moving in a timely fashion now. Your statement is flawed also, and I'm going to step out of the Celica world and into the GM world for a second to say why: Take the 4th Gen 93-02 F-Body and the 92-96 LT1 C4 and 98+ C5 and C6 Corvette's. I own Two 93 F-Body's and a 99 C5 Vette so I speak from personal experience as well as loads of practical experience. Those cars mentioned, save for the 92-96 Vette (ZF6 6 Speed) run Borg Warner T-56 6 Speeds. The F-body's got 3.23 or 2.73 rear end gears in 93 and 3.42 rear end gears in 94-02 and the Vette's got 3.42 rear end gears in 97 to current. This is NOT optimal gearing for the car, this was specifically a way for gm to overdrive the car more and cut down on the gas guzzler taxes while at the same time providing a stronger transmission than what was previously available. If you've never ridden in any of the above stock and then with a set of 3.73, 3.90, or 4.10 gears out back, then you don't realize how low geared they really are from the factory. Stepping back into the celica/import world now.

I fully realize that a certain amount of engineering goes into why cars get six speeds, and will admit that the import world is more engineered because is HAS to be given the inability of some of the cars to get moving quickly enough. Not a bash, just a reality. Close gears and steep gearing/final drive ratio is an absolute necessity. But another flaw in your example above is when you used the example of an auto tranny. Too bad we're not talking auto's. I bet if you compared the gearing of the six speeds (i believe there was just a thread on here talking about a rare six speed from a Curren or something) you'd find that the gear ratio's are probably quite close and wouldn't harm acceleration as much as you'd think while still providing a more reasonable cruise gear. Given the Celica's relatively high final drive ratio with the 5 speed, moving to a six speed probably wouldn't have much of an impact at all. Sadly though, without some major engineering or a stroke of genius somewhere, we probably won't find out.

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

[Kwanza26]

You don't have to explain anything to me. I fully realize what I said. What you missed was the fact that my rant was based on the fact that I'm running a 3S-GTE and have no need or desire to turn 4K RPM's on the highway and certainly don't need such steep gearing to get the car moving in a timely fashion now. Your statement is flawed also, and I'm going to step out of the Celica world and into the GM world for a second to say why: Take the 4th Gen 93-02 F-Body and the 92-96 LT1 C4 and 98+ C5 and C6 Corvette's. I own Two 93 F-Body's and a 99 C5 Vette so I speak from personal experience as well as loads of practical experience. Those cars mentioned, save for the 92-96 Vette (ZF6 6 Speed) run Borg Warner T-56 6 Speeds. The F-body's got 3.23 or 2.73 rear end gears in 93 and 3.42 rear end gears in 94-02 and the Vette's got 3.42 rear end gears in 97 to current. This is NOT optimal gearing for the car, this was specifically a way for gm to overdrive the car more and cut down on the gas guzzler taxes while at the same time providing a stronger transmission than what was previously available. If you've never ridden in any of the above stock and then with a set of 3.73, 3.90, or 4.10 gears out back, then you don't realize how low geared they really are from the factory. Stepping back into the celica/import world now.

While that may be the case with Corvette and other big V8's... there's a flaw in your argument. You CANNOT compare muscle cars to imports... why? Muscle cars can run fine with taller gears... in many cases much faster with taller gears when compared to imports. TORQUE. Back to my example... the difference between a well matched 5 speed and a poorly matched 6 speed can be HUGE. GM understands that many Corvette buyers aren't gonna buy a corvette specifically to race... so the need for shorter sporty gearing that can hurt fuel economy isn't neccesary, so they have the taller finaldrives to attract the not so performance oriented buyers.

I fully realize that a certain amount of engineering goes into why cars get six speeds, and will admit that the import world is more engineered because is HAS to be given the inability of some of the cars to get moving quickly enough. Not a bash, just a reality. Close gears and steep gearing/final drive ratio is an absolute necessity. But another flaw in your example above is when you used the example of an auto tranny. Too bad we're not talking auto's.

Why is it flawed? We're talking about gearing... not whether a driver or tranny can perform shifts better. You're from the domestic world right? Which is preffered in a drag race?

I bet if you compared the gearing of the six speeds (i believe there was just a thread on here talking about a rare six speed from a Curren or something) you'd find that the gear ratio's are probably quite close and wouldn't harm acceleration as much as you'd think while still providing a more reasonable cruise gear. Given the Celica's relatively high final drive ratio with the 5 speed, moving to a six speed probably wouldn't have much of an impact at all. Sadly though, without some major engineering or a stroke of genius somewhere, we probably won't find out.

Unfortunately as myself and many others have pointed out OVER and OVER... there is ONLY one toyota 6 speed transaxle... mated to engines that both peak power near 8000 rpms. Besides... how often has someone come in here asking about 6 gears with even a remote idea of what gearing is?

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

This last part sounds like something muscle car guys would say. Just remember... we're talking 4 cylinders here... but as I've mentioned already... there are 5 speed trannies available that mate up to the 3SGTE that DO have taller final drives. The need for a 6th gear is purely asthetic...

[Fastbird]

While that may be the case with Corvette and other big V8's... there's a flaw in your argument. You CANNOT compare muscle cars to imports... why? Muscle cars can run fine with taller gears... in many cases much faster with taller gears when compared to imports. TORQUE. Back to my example... the difference between a well matched 5 speed and a poorly matched 6 speed can be HUGE. GM understands that many Corvette buyers aren't gonna buy a corvette specifically to race... so the need for shorter sporty gearing that can hurt fuel economy isn't neccesary, so they have the taller finaldrives to attract the not so performance oriented buyers.

I fully realize that which is why I mentioned in the next paragraph that I concede that the import engines need the taller gearing. But, my point with the v8 stuff was that even those are undergeared intentionally for economy reasons. They respond magnificently to steeper gears and feel like they should with them.

Why is it flawed? We're talking about gearing... not whether a driver or tranny can perform shifts better. You're from the domestic world right? Which is preffered in a drag race?

Auto's are preferred in drag racing for consistency, plain and simple. The flaw was that when comparing gearing you can't compare an auto to a manual because of how they operate. Auto's with the torque converter have a different torque multiplication effect from slippage than a manual does. It really makes a big difference.

Unfortunately as myself and many others have pointed out OVER and OVER... there is ONLY one toyota 6 speed transaxle... mated to engines that both peak power near 8000 rpms. Besides... how often has someone come in here asking about 6 gears with even a remote idea of what gearing is?

I wasn't aware of there only being 1 toyota 6 speed and had no clue that they were set up for high revving engines. Actually, in the thread I mentioned, I do remember seeing the gearing and thinking "man, that's really steep and really wouldn't accomplish what I'd want anyway." So I'll own up to not putting two and two together there.

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.

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This last part sounds like something muscle car guys would say. Just remember... we're talking 4 cylinders here... but as I've mentioned already... there are 5 speed trannies available that mate up to the 3SGTE that DO have taller final drives. The need for a 6th gear is purely asthetic...

I left that original quote of mine above because I'm curious how that sounds like something a muscle car guy would say. If you haven't driven a 3S swapped 6GC with a 5 speed yet, come up and I'll let you drive mine and experience how almost utterly useless 1st gear is. You blink and you bounce off the rev limiter, it really goes by that quickly (not saying it's a bad thing cause it's dang fun, but it would benefit a little from holding on longer). Now, I do realize that there ARE 5 speeds that mate up to the 3S and have the taller gearing, but of those the only one I'm familiar with is the E153 and it's only good for a marginal difference that I can tell (although I do NOT know what the final drive ratio is with the LSD, the MR2 setup essentially). I wouldn't go so far as to call the need for a 6th gear purely aesthetic though. With the shorter gearing even in other 5 speeds, you have essentially mechanically limited the top speed of the car to your rev limiter in 5th gear. This is just a personal opinion that some may share with me, but I'd rather know that I'm not mechanically limited to a top speed and that I'm only limited by the power output and drag coefficient of the car. Texas mile or salt flats anyone???

You make marked points, no doubt. I think we're just looking at things in different perspectives is all. Cheers!

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Nov 29, 2006 - 10:51 AM

[Kwanza26]

Auto's are preferred in drag racing for consistency, plain and simple. The flaw was that when comparing gearing you can't compare an auto to a manual because of how they operate. Auto's with the torque converter have a different torque multiplication effect from slippage than a manual does. It really makes a big difference.

... but... I'm not comparing how they operate or even how they shift. I'm comparing gearing. Too tall of gearing drops an engine out of the powerband... too short of gearing negates low-midrange powerband.

My point in making my orignal post was simply that for the motor swap guys, you could potentially increase fuel economy and reduce the engine speed at highway cruise without hurting acceleration (possibly increasing it because of a less steep 1st and 2nd gear allowing better power transfer to the ground via less torque multiplication from the lower gearing) and givng the car some longer legs for the top end (should the need arise) at the same time.
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I left that original quote of mine above because I'm curious how that sounds like something a muscle car guy would say. If you haven't driven a 3S swapped 6GC with a 5 speed yet, come up and I'll let you drive mine and experience how almost utterly useless 1st gear is. You blink and you bounce off the rev limiter, it really goes by that quickly (not saying it's a bad thing cause it's dang fun, but it would benefit a little from holding on longer). Now, I do realize that there ARE 5 speeds that mate up to the 3S and have the taller gearing, but of those the only one I'm familiar with is the E153 and it's only good for a marginal difference that I can tell (although I do NOT know what the final drive ratio is with the LSD, the MR2 setup essentially). I wouldn't go so far as to call the need for a 6th gear purely aesthetic though. With the shorter gearing even in other 5 speeds, you have essentially mechanically limited the top speed of the car to your rev limiter in 5th gear. This is just a personal opinion that some may share with me, but I'd rather know that I'm not mechanically limited to a top speed and that I'm only limited by the power output and drag coefficient of the car. Texas mile or salt flats anyone???

You make marked points, no doubt. I think we're just looking at things in different perspectives is all. Cheers!

I've driven plenty of all... not specifically a 6th gen... But a 5th, 4th and more MR2 turbos than I can count. I say it sounds like something muscle car guys say because one... in the import world... if you're swapped... fuel economy typically isn't a worry. Gearing alone is gonna improve fuel economy by much, cause if you look at the fuel curves... the difference isn't that big between a few hundred rpms. I've said this before also... if you're worried about fuel economy... turn down the boost and drive like an old lady...

A few notes on trannies... The Camry/Solara e153 does have a taller final drive... should drop about 500 rpms off 5th gear cruise... but you're gonna have to rediff the bastard for LSD. The S51 from the Camry and S52 from older Celicas both too have taller final drives... and taller overall gearing in the S51. There are a few options out there if you're seriously worried about gearing.

[Fastbird]

Auto's are preferred in drag racing for consistency, plain and simple. The flaw was that when comparing gearing you can't compare an auto to a manual because of how they operate. Auto's with the torque converter have a different torque multiplication effect from slippage than a manual does. It really makes a big difference.

... but... I'm not comparing how they operate or even how they shift. I'm comparing gearing. Too tall of gearing drops an engine out of the powerband... too short of gearing negates low-midrange powerband.

There's soooo much more to it than just transmission gearing though. Tire heigh and differential gearing (Ok, not so much on the transaxle setups) being the two easiest ways to counteract less than optimal transmission gearing. This is actually the most common way to go about it because it's just not practical to have custom gears made for a tranny. My fuel economy concern isn't that big, but my concern (and primarily annoyance) is with cruising at 4K RPM on the highway for extended periods of time. I just don't like it, and with the custom exhaust, it's a little obnoxious after a while.

reply revisited
and you're still missing a mega critical part, a set of compatible axles


and shifter cables

so.... what you said is just jibber, go back to the drawing board, no offense intended

That is just amusing. You tell me to go back to the drawing board when you're talking about parts to finish the installation, and I'm talking about parts needed to even install the thing!! How is needing a custom length input shaft jibberish is the custom axles and shifter cables won't do anything because the tranny won't engage the clutch?? Thanks for the laugh though.

Oh, and FYI, bellhousings are interchangeable. The bellhousing is not an integral part of the transmission casing and is simply bolted on in most cases.