The automotive bailout Options

[playr158]

This post has been edited by playr158: Dec 9, 2008 - 2:21 PM

[97celiman]

ahhhhh the right wing-ness is killing me...

so let me lay this little scenario on you,

so the guy makes 52k a year for pushing a broom, great, do i think thats right? not necessarily, however i do think he should get paid something maybe not 52 grand but certainly not much less than that, everyone has to have a job, whether it be broom pushing or designing the new gas guzzler for ford, which while it is not a good thing, does require a college degree. so lets rag on the broom pushing guy or the guy who checks groceries or stocks the shelves who works for some mondo corp. and rather than work w/out union security he chose to contribute some of his pay to them, so that he is guaranteed raises at a certain point, rather than going to his "boss" and saying "hey! i make 50 spare tires for the ford escape each day and jim-bob only makes 35, i think i deserve a raise! plus ive been here for 10 years and hes only been here one, but i make the same amount so i want a raise!" do you realize how much this would slow the company down if they had every factory worker come up to there boss and ask for certain things such as raises, healthcare, retirement and these several other benefits? the union member and union are actually saving the company money b/c they are able to produce more b/c ppl arent up and leaving there posts on the line. we say 52k thousand is alot for pushing a broom and it is, dont get me wrong, i think they should make maybe just over the poverty line maybe say 40-45 based on yrs of service plus benefits, however suppose he has a wife and 2.4 kids to feed just like the company exec?

furthermore the unions in different situations such as the airline industry protect pilots and other airline employees from taking MASSIVE paycuts after times like 9/11 (trust me they took several big ones that on avg halved the average first officers pay) however it is still a liveable wage....since the transportation industry is not allowed to go on strike like many other industries bc of woodrow wilson transportation act (our infrastructure would die) it provides a system of checks and balances with the company, the stuff like moving the retirement age up to 65 for pilots is crap i dont want some guy with a walker flying my plane and furthermore the guys that have been there for 30 years at age 60 will just then be promoted to capt. for the 5 last yrs which is crap.

im not saying every janitor should get to make 52k a year but lets not be mad at the janitor, everyone has to and needs a job especially with mouths to feed and when you look at inflation and factor in the cost of living, thats barely enough (if it all) and maybe his wife cant work for some reason or maybe she can and she gets a bank job and makes 40k well combined thats just under 100k and after taxes some less, so i suppose its enough to live comfortably.

i think with unions there needs to be give and take and in this instance the uaw will have to give, it is not there fault that the big 3 make ****ty cars and if anything we should be mad at them for not meeting the demands of the ppl. The unions simply provide a voice for workers who are just a number and want to survive in this world, sadly not every person is fortunate enough to have access to college etc, i know there are a sh*tload of ways to get there but somebody has to do the dirty work otherwise we'd be paying a college grad to push a broom and then where would we be?

we talk of this bailout money as a bad thing and im not saying it is a good thing however i think we would take a bigger hit with thousands of ppl out of jobs (detroit already has enough crime lol) i guarantee if you were in the same situation you would want the protection of the union and no paycut. im sure there are some janitors out there to that are willing to take a paycut if that means keeping there jobs

if you look at line graphs of union membership vs. the overall economic prosperity of the country i guarentee you it is higher when union memberships are higher, they do save time because they take a mass people and offer some sort of stability for them and the country.
part of the problem also lies the classic republican tax cut mantra- they offer tax cuts for the company so that not only do they hypothetically invest in the business (hence creating new jobs (that would be great if it actually worked)) but also they lead you in with a wink and a nod saying "hey shouldnt these guys get the cuts b/c trust me when you've started your own business and you get big and rich you'll want these same tax cuts...trust us" (and then the little elbow nudge) this is all great and it is the american dream to start your business and be successful however i got news for you 3/4 of small business fail within the first year and 9/10 ppl dont make it to the "big time" at all so where does that leave them when they need a job (maybe pushing a broom because all they have is a hs diploma bc they immediately started there business right after high school?)

in the end dont blame the union member for the faults of the company executives that budget the companies money

and just remember, its going to get worse before it gets better

this is just my .02 no offense to anyone

and if you read all of it-props to you

side note: did anyone see jon stewart rip huckabee a new one, awesome...no offense again but it was HARSH

[CAMAricer]

Need...more...capitalization...and better punctuations...too hard...to read...eyes are cringing....AHHHH!!! No offense, but it looks like incoherent, ramblings of a madman.

and if you read all of it-props to you

I disagree about not placing blame on the Janitor who makes 52K. It's like not placing blame on a spoiled bratty child. Sure, the parents are at fault...but does that let the kid off the hook too?

And don't even get me started about "unions". Has anyone stopped to think how much communism and unions have in common?

[GriffGirl]

Need...more...capitalization...and better punctuations...too hard...to read...eyes are cringing....AHHHH!!! No offense, but it looks like incoherent, ramblings of a madman.

and if you read all of it-props to you

I disagree about not placing blame on the Janitor who makes 52K. It's like not placing blame on a spoiled bratty child. Sure, the parents are at fault...but does that let the kid off the hook too?

And don't even get me started about "unions". Has anyone stopped to think how much communism and unions have in common?

I think that's very well put, but the reality is is that if I were making 52k a year, I wouldn't complain about it, whether I deserved that 52k a year or not. There's the flip side of your statement, which is that the janitor should be supported in the lifestyle to which he's become accustomed. The bailout is his alimony (Of course I say that totally facetiously)

I totally understand the importance and value of unions... especially in the context of the turn of the LAST century when they genuinely represented people who were basically being taken for granted and whose labor was being abused. I can support a union that's sole purpose is to preserve safe and fair working conditions. But this has gotten out of hand. Many people who are union members aren't even doing it by choice. It's institutionalized extortion. Unwilling members are extorted into paying their monthly and annual dues, and corporations are extorted into paying ridiculous wages that are disproportionately higher than the market value of their positions is. And don't go off with that "you're not being forced to, you could just quit your job" crap. That may be true, but it's not realistic for a lot of people, and either way, it's still institutionalized extortion.