does the year 2010 mean alot to the ST205 owner? (it should) Options

[6gtfour]

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

This is a thread for those of you who are more inclined to believe that we are not alone in the universe; for the type of tuner who does not accept that the earth is round or the sky is blue just because we've been told that all our lives so we continue to believe it without questioning it and without any proof.

Ever since I was born My family has always driven toyotas. I have an undying love for toyotas even though they are currently outclassed in the performance arena by almost every other manufacturer. I have actually written emails to toyota headquarters concerning their intentions for future performance cars and a possibility of the return of the Supra. Their response was basically that toyota is no longer intent on high performance road car production but more interested in eco friendly transport alternatives. In short toyota has gone green.

The obvious question now follows... So... what about die hard toyota performance fans? How do we keep up with newer offerings from other manufacturers who continue to research and develop high performance cars while toyota's performance era struggles to keep up with newer technology? Is it possible to compete with the mitsubishi evo X or subaru's new STI impreza hatch with the likes of the celica ST205?


Well I can assure you that the limiting factor in attempting to find an answer to that question will ultimately depend on what you are inclined to accept or believe. I certainly do not have the answers and while I can assure you that the 3SGTE is outclassed by most of today's factory engines I firmly believe that with a slight adjustment in expectations from this toyota performance platform many of the current beliefs about this widely discredited motor can be proven otherwise.

I've started beginning to observe what sets other manufacturers apart in 2010. What are the targets they set for full production performance cars, some of their goals and expectations. The result has been a readjustment in my own goals and expectations for my ST205 as unrealistic and impossible as they may seem.

2010/11 OEM factory equipped performance cars currently differ from the ST205 celica in several ways including the following:

1) better in cabin road noise control
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
3) navigation
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
7) service interval notifications
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
9) better suspension and handling
10 better fuel economy
11) better idle characteristics
12) shorter braking distances
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
15) better tires
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
17) higher horse power outputs
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
19) significantly better aesthetics
20) ergonomically superior

Not hardly an exhaustive list but you begin to get the picture. Toyota performance cars are being left behind in more ways than just a quartermile time or highway run.
It should be easy enough to fix the quartermile time or highway runs by dialing up the boost by whatever the currently employed approach is but It will take some doing to fix the actual gap that exists in a broader sense.

If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you but I am never happy when I realize that a luxury SUV such as the Audi Q7 will simply walk away from the ST205 on the highway without so much as a grunt from its engine or even a puff of smoke. All the while having the windows rolled up and possibly not even realizing that I was trying my darndest to keep up with it. In all fairness to the ST205 it is in fact electronically speed limited but I'm just making a general observation.
In the year 1997 when the car was manufactured all it would have taken was a gentle hint of throttle opening at that speed to disappear from the horizon of any approaching average luxury SUV that was available then.

I have been immersed in this school of thought even before the year 2010 as I have always been fascinated by the irony that OEM ECU tuning is usually light years ahead of any aftermarket ECU's programmable options. I would have thought that as good as the OEM is since they must work within a production budget the aftermarket tuner should always be best since the only consideration is performance.

When Nissan launched the GTR R35 It finally dawned on me what was missing. There is very little and usually no focus on street performance tuning from the aftermarket. The aftermarket is saturated with full race spec tuner hardware and the other side of the coin involves very expensive "ricerware" that is more about shiny polished chrome finishes and bright colored silicone hoses etc than it is about performance. Nissan was able to beat all 3 previous versions of the skyline in every corner on a circuit test in japan using a stock R35 even though the R32 R33 and R34 skylines were full tuner vehicles ranging between 400 and 600 horse power. The R35 GTR is also probably heavier than the production machinery that built it. So one can't help but ask how on earth did they get it to be that fast?

Well while you may be thinking that the average ST205 owner does not have access to the nurburgring race circut for testing and also that Nissan's research and development budget for the R35 is wildly beyond the dreams of most lotto winners, there are a few subtle factors that affect the private tuner with equal impact as the most wealthy car manufacturer. Nissan does not have a single red or blue greddy or hks colorful silicone hose under the hood of that car. They did not spend even 10 seconds considering what tone or pitch the blow off valve should make when it dumps air into the atmosphere. Their goals were easily outlined for them by setting an overall goal of achieving a certain lap time on the nurburgring. Anything that affected that goal negatively had to go. And at the same time several other things that were previously frowned upon were utilized such as the weight of the car because at the end of the day the test results were there to prove that the goal was achieved.

If this same approach is used when considering modifications to be done to the ST205 It should be only a matter of time before people start wondering if toyota has reintroduced a limited production run of a higher powered faster celica ST205 in an attempt to show that they are still heavyweights in the performance arena.

[6gtfour]

Its simply a trade off, you can not have a very light car that is great on handling and acceleration and be good at high speeds with a great ride.

See this is what I was talking about in the beginning. You believe and accept that. I simply refuse to. Not in the year 2010. I'd believe that in 1997 but not today. Road noise can be controlled in a lightened car by several newer light weight solutions now. Plus the nissan GTR R35 disprooves the theory that lighter means better handling entirely.
Maybe the answer to the problem is in a slightly more technical solution. I'm sure there exists a suitable alternative that allows you to have the best of both worlds.
I think we just need to look harder for solutions to our problems with the car. Some may be costly too costly even but I'm sure that generally we can build a much better overall package now by doing the right modifications than we could have back when the car was still in production.

[Hanyo]

Its simply a trade off, you can not have a very light car that is great on handling and acceleration and be good at high speeds with a great ride.

See this is what I was talking about in the beginning. You believe and accept that. I simply refuse to. Not in the year 2010. I'd believe that in 1997 but not today. Road noise can be controlled in a lightened car by several newer light weight solutions now. Plus the nissan GTR R35 disprooves the theory that lighter means better handling entirely.
Maybe the answer to the problem is in a slightly more technical solution. I'm sure there exists a suitable alternative that allows you to have the best of both worlds.
I think we just need to look harder for solutions to our problems with the car. Some may be costly too costly even but I'm sure that generally we can build a much better overall package now by doing the right modifications than we could have back when the car was still in production.

you can not use the GTR as an example. It defy the laws of physics!

but kidding aside, the gtr/EVo is only great at handling because engineers spent millions of dollars tuning the car with very fancy computers to controls how the car acts. For our typical tuner to replicate this would require millions of dollars and hours or race track tuning at which point your better off buying a gtr.

Yes road noise can be controlled by electronic acoustic cancellation. But the RIDE comfort is going to compromised because of the weight(there is a reason why Bentley weigh so much). There is no way to make a lighter car ride as well as a heavy one.
The only technology that is out there to offset ride comfort is radar road sensing; along with electronic controlled dampeners. But this cost millions of dollars to develop and adapt to your own car.

Basically what it boils down to is. Yes there is the technology out there, but these technology required a ton of software to implement into your own car. Your average joe does not have the skills to hack into car makers firmware and develope and customized there own. Even if you manage to create your own software to work with your car, your still face the extremely high cost of the parts.

This post has been edited by Hanyo: Apr 1, 2010 - 12:09 PM