does the year 2010 mean alot to the ST205 owner? (it should) Options

[6gtfour]

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

This is a thread for those of you who are more inclined to believe that we are not alone in the universe; for the type of tuner who does not accept that the earth is round or the sky is blue just because we've been told that all our lives so we continue to believe it without questioning it and without any proof.

Ever since I was born My family has always driven toyotas. I have an undying love for toyotas even though they are currently outclassed in the performance arena by almost every other manufacturer. I have actually written emails to toyota headquarters concerning their intentions for future performance cars and a possibility of the return of the Supra. Their response was basically that toyota is no longer intent on high performance road car production but more interested in eco friendly transport alternatives. In short toyota has gone green.

The obvious question now follows... So... what about die hard toyota performance fans? How do we keep up with newer offerings from other manufacturers who continue to research and develop high performance cars while toyota's performance era struggles to keep up with newer technology? Is it possible to compete with the mitsubishi evo X or subaru's new STI impreza hatch with the likes of the celica ST205?


Well I can assure you that the limiting factor in attempting to find an answer to that question will ultimately depend on what you are inclined to accept or believe. I certainly do not have the answers and while I can assure you that the 3SGTE is outclassed by most of today's factory engines I firmly believe that with a slight adjustment in expectations from this toyota performance platform many of the current beliefs about this widely discredited motor can be proven otherwise.

I've started beginning to observe what sets other manufacturers apart in 2010. What are the targets they set for full production performance cars, some of their goals and expectations. The result has been a readjustment in my own goals and expectations for my ST205 as unrealistic and impossible as they may seem.

2010/11 OEM factory equipped performance cars currently differ from the ST205 celica in several ways including the following:

1) better in cabin road noise control
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
3) navigation
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
7) service interval notifications
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
9) better suspension and handling
10 better fuel economy
11) better idle characteristics
12) shorter braking distances
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
15) better tires
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
17) higher horse power outputs
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
19) significantly better aesthetics
20) ergonomically superior

Not hardly an exhaustive list but you begin to get the picture. Toyota performance cars are being left behind in more ways than just a quartermile time or highway run.
It should be easy enough to fix the quartermile time or highway runs by dialing up the boost by whatever the currently employed approach is but It will take some doing to fix the actual gap that exists in a broader sense.

If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you but I am never happy when I realize that a luxury SUV such as the Audi Q7 will simply walk away from the ST205 on the highway without so much as a grunt from its engine or even a puff of smoke. All the while having the windows rolled up and possibly not even realizing that I was trying my darndest to keep up with it. In all fairness to the ST205 it is in fact electronically speed limited but I'm just making a general observation.
In the year 1997 when the car was manufactured all it would have taken was a gentle hint of throttle opening at that speed to disappear from the horizon of any approaching average luxury SUV that was available then.

I have been immersed in this school of thought even before the year 2010 as I have always been fascinated by the irony that OEM ECU tuning is usually light years ahead of any aftermarket ECU's programmable options. I would have thought that as good as the OEM is since they must work within a production budget the aftermarket tuner should always be best since the only consideration is performance.

When Nissan launched the GTR R35 It finally dawned on me what was missing. There is very little and usually no focus on street performance tuning from the aftermarket. The aftermarket is saturated with full race spec tuner hardware and the other side of the coin involves very expensive "ricerware" that is more about shiny polished chrome finishes and bright colored silicone hoses etc than it is about performance. Nissan was able to beat all 3 previous versions of the skyline in every corner on a circuit test in japan using a stock R35 even though the R32 R33 and R34 skylines were full tuner vehicles ranging between 400 and 600 horse power. The R35 GTR is also probably heavier than the production machinery that built it. So one can't help but ask how on earth did they get it to be that fast?

Well while you may be thinking that the average ST205 owner does not have access to the nurburgring race circut for testing and also that Nissan's research and development budget for the R35 is wildly beyond the dreams of most lotto winners, there are a few subtle factors that affect the private tuner with equal impact as the most wealthy car manufacturer. Nissan does not have a single red or blue greddy or hks colorful silicone hose under the hood of that car. They did not spend even 10 seconds considering what tone or pitch the blow off valve should make when it dumps air into the atmosphere. Their goals were easily outlined for them by setting an overall goal of achieving a certain lap time on the nurburgring. Anything that affected that goal negatively had to go. And at the same time several other things that were previously frowned upon were utilized such as the weight of the car because at the end of the day the test results were there to prove that the goal was achieved.

If this same approach is used when considering modifications to be done to the ST205 It should be only a matter of time before people start wondering if toyota has reintroduced a limited production run of a higher powered faster celica ST205 in an attempt to show that they are still heavyweights in the performance arena.

[Espo]

OP- you're an absolute idiot for comparing a car that was built in the mid 90's for homologation reasons with brand new luxury sports cars.
/
The ST205 isn't supposed to be a nice smooth ride. It's a rally car. Ever driven a WRX or STI? Their loud, their power delivery is harsh, and the suspension is stiff. Its a car that is only on the roads so that they can race in WRC. The ST205 is the exact same, but a decade older. Technology wasn't as advanced as today's luxury cars back then.

This. Comparing an ST205 to new sports cars is an abomination. Of course all these little things are going to have improved in a decade plus. As SwissFerdi said, if we hadn't made progression in all these areas, the automotive industry would be a disgrace right now. And again, it's a rally-built car.

By the time you spend the money and labor doing everything to make this ST205 supercar, you could've bought yourself any number of 2010 sports/luxury sports cars that have all these things you want. And for less, too. Oh and by the way, add throttle position sensors instead of drive-by-wire and electronically assisted steering instead of a steering linkage - they're standard on the Yaris, not even a sports car.

Think about it. Parts, your own time or someone elses, shipping, electronics, molding an entire new interior, etc. etc. is going to cost you not millions, but I'm willing to bet hundreds of thousands.

Who cares if the place in your floor where your drivetrain is gets warm? Why would you touch it anyway? Who cares about road noise? Personally, I'd rather hear what's going on outside my cabin rather than have it quiet with air rushing over my windows - maybe I'll hear my tires squealing to keep their grip and slow down around that curve on the track, instead of the sound of air before I lose control and smash into the wall. I'd rather hear my engine than not - what if there's a knock or clink noise that would otherwise be deafened? What if my car makes weird noises when I'm not on the track and I don't hear them through the sound deadening material?

Aesthetics - why does our car still turn heads? I was turning into the car wash today on a busy road, and a kid in his 90's Camaro saw my car and he was glued to it until he passed me. I have stock rims on and a chipped hood. This car still looks great, in 2010. To be honest, everything on the road today except Mazdas look relatively the same. The interior of our cars is what some automakers today took cues from - just look at the Zs sloped dashboard - where does that look familiar from? It looks so fancy because most of it is brushed aluminum, not padded vinyl.

Handling - a carbon fiber hatch and hood will do wonders to lower your center of gravity, improve acceleration and handling. From there, just make more stuff lighter, or move things - battery to trunk, lightweight fly, remove seats (not that a luxury car would do this), etc.

And as for all the accessories like an oil light, the Celica already warns you when your oil level is low, the light comes on. Brakes are wearing down or hanging up, e-brake light comes on. It has a trip and odometer. Wanna know how your mpg is doing? Reset your trip at the pump, next time you fill up, trip meter/gallons filled. Pull out your cell phone, don't even need a pencil and paper, takes two seconds. Instantaneous MPG, there's a formula for that, but I don't know it offhand...something like (engine displacement/RPM)*MPH, I think. Yes, that would make sense - my 1.8 (1800cc) does approx 3000RPM at 65mph - (1800/3000)=.6*65=39 - EPA estimate for our cars highway is 37. Wanna find out how far you're gonna go? Current MPG (Formula above)*Gallons left in tank. Presto, fuel range. Gas is low, gas light comes on, even if it's not accurate all the time. Wanna do something cool? Find a way to put in a returning gas needle instead of a nonreturning one. That's always bugged me after having my Sunfire.

If you can't pop your hood to check your oil level, coolant level, brake fluid, windshield washer fluid, etc. on a regular basis, own a brand new car or don't own a car. The Celica doesn't spray it's washer's very hard when it's low on fluid - time to fill up. Better idle, more oil. Make sure it's full, and you don't need an oil change - the I4s like to eat oil, just by way of the engine working. Better braking? Get better pads, bigger rotors, more advanced stuff from a lexus or etc. that fits on your Celica. Better tires, stick summer tires on a set of rims - automakers use the exact same stuff we can buy at a tire shop. More visibility, either HIDs or Sylvania produces new super bright halogen bulbs. They're focused AND brighter! More horsepower, modify your engine, or since you want factory installed options, fabricate a better "stock" airbox, "stock" exhaust manifold, etc. etc. If you want smoother power delivery, supercharge your engine instead of turboing it - no turbo lag, more torque from start to finish.

You sound like you're going back and forth between building a luxury Celica and whining about how Toyota doesn't make performance cars - yet they just released the F series in the Lexus and the FT-86 is scheduled for release in 2012, and TRD keeps making Release Series TCs that are tuned for performance. Toyota has not and is not abandoning performance, especially with a new, self-admitted "car nut" CEO.

And yes, not only did I read your entire post, but the entire thread, prior to posting my response.

This post has been edited by Espo: Apr 2, 2010 - 4:04 AM