does the year 2010 mean alot to the ST205 owner? (it should) Options

[6gtfour]

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

This is a thread for those of you who are more inclined to believe that we are not alone in the universe; for the type of tuner who does not accept that the earth is round or the sky is blue just because we've been told that all our lives so we continue to believe it without questioning it and without any proof.

Ever since I was born My family has always driven toyotas. I have an undying love for toyotas even though they are currently outclassed in the performance arena by almost every other manufacturer. I have actually written emails to toyota headquarters concerning their intentions for future performance cars and a possibility of the return of the Supra. Their response was basically that toyota is no longer intent on high performance road car production but more interested in eco friendly transport alternatives. In short toyota has gone green.

The obvious question now follows... So... what about die hard toyota performance fans? How do we keep up with newer offerings from other manufacturers who continue to research and develop high performance cars while toyota's performance era struggles to keep up with newer technology? Is it possible to compete with the mitsubishi evo X or subaru's new STI impreza hatch with the likes of the celica ST205?


Well I can assure you that the limiting factor in attempting to find an answer to that question will ultimately depend on what you are inclined to accept or believe. I certainly do not have the answers and while I can assure you that the 3SGTE is outclassed by most of today's factory engines I firmly believe that with a slight adjustment in expectations from this toyota performance platform many of the current beliefs about this widely discredited motor can be proven otherwise.

I've started beginning to observe what sets other manufacturers apart in 2010. What are the targets they set for full production performance cars, some of their goals and expectations. The result has been a readjustment in my own goals and expectations for my ST205 as unrealistic and impossible as they may seem.

2010/11 OEM factory equipped performance cars currently differ from the ST205 celica in several ways including the following:

1) better in cabin road noise control
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
3) navigation
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
7) service interval notifications
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
9) better suspension and handling
10 better fuel economy
11) better idle characteristics
12) shorter braking distances
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
15) better tires
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
17) higher horse power outputs
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
19) significantly better aesthetics
20) ergonomically superior

Not hardly an exhaustive list but you begin to get the picture. Toyota performance cars are being left behind in more ways than just a quartermile time or highway run.
It should be easy enough to fix the quartermile time or highway runs by dialing up the boost by whatever the currently employed approach is but It will take some doing to fix the actual gap that exists in a broader sense.

If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you but I am never happy when I realize that a luxury SUV such as the Audi Q7 will simply walk away from the ST205 on the highway without so much as a grunt from its engine or even a puff of smoke. All the while having the windows rolled up and possibly not even realizing that I was trying my darndest to keep up with it. In all fairness to the ST205 it is in fact electronically speed limited but I'm just making a general observation.
In the year 1997 when the car was manufactured all it would have taken was a gentle hint of throttle opening at that speed to disappear from the horizon of any approaching average luxury SUV that was available then.

I have been immersed in this school of thought even before the year 2010 as I have always been fascinated by the irony that OEM ECU tuning is usually light years ahead of any aftermarket ECU's programmable options. I would have thought that as good as the OEM is since they must work within a production budget the aftermarket tuner should always be best since the only consideration is performance.

When Nissan launched the GTR R35 It finally dawned on me what was missing. There is very little and usually no focus on street performance tuning from the aftermarket. The aftermarket is saturated with full race spec tuner hardware and the other side of the coin involves very expensive "ricerware" that is more about shiny polished chrome finishes and bright colored silicone hoses etc than it is about performance. Nissan was able to beat all 3 previous versions of the skyline in every corner on a circuit test in japan using a stock R35 even though the R32 R33 and R34 skylines were full tuner vehicles ranging between 400 and 600 horse power. The R35 GTR is also probably heavier than the production machinery that built it. So one can't help but ask how on earth did they get it to be that fast?

Well while you may be thinking that the average ST205 owner does not have access to the nurburgring race circut for testing and also that Nissan's research and development budget for the R35 is wildly beyond the dreams of most lotto winners, there are a few subtle factors that affect the private tuner with equal impact as the most wealthy car manufacturer. Nissan does not have a single red or blue greddy or hks colorful silicone hose under the hood of that car. They did not spend even 10 seconds considering what tone or pitch the blow off valve should make when it dumps air into the atmosphere. Their goals were easily outlined for them by setting an overall goal of achieving a certain lap time on the nurburgring. Anything that affected that goal negatively had to go. And at the same time several other things that were previously frowned upon were utilized such as the weight of the car because at the end of the day the test results were there to prove that the goal was achieved.

If this same approach is used when considering modifications to be done to the ST205 It should be only a matter of time before people start wondering if toyota has reintroduced a limited production run of a higher powered faster celica ST205 in an attempt to show that they are still heavyweights in the performance arena.

[mrgt4]

i have to say i dissagree with you on many many accounts... and heres why..


1) better in cabin road noise control
a... its a sports car, really... who cares? if you do, then buy an audi

2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
a.... again... electrics= more things to go wrong, il take being a good driver over fancy yaw diffs in evos etc..

3) navigation
a... its a called a tomtom, nav = more weight = pointless waste of money.

4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
a.... my st205 does have the multi speaker component system, yours obviously has the 4 speakers, not 8

5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
a... with less than 25mpg i dont want to see how fast my money dissapears thanks.

6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
a... again, all pointless crap for a sportscar, all i want is water and oil temp and oil pressure thankyou

7) service interval notifications
a... you should have the brains to know when to service your car if you own one of these.. if not, sell the car to someone who does.

8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
a... again, if your too lazy to use your eyes, you shouldnt own the car.

9) better suspension and handling
a... what planet are you on? with some good struts the gtfour handles like its on rails, ive out classed multiple r34 gtr and r33 gtr on the ring and donington park and bedford

10 better fuel economy
a... what do you expect, a 2l with anywhere upto 280bhp out the factory? if you want economy or moan about fuel consumption, buy a ford fiesta

11) better idle characteristics
a... what are you on? mine idles smooth at 750rpm, if yours doesnt, its crap

12) shorter braking distances
a.... on drugs or something? the st205 has awesome brakes, good pads like carbotechs will stop you dead far quicker than any evo or poohbaru

13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
a... its a toyota, ive owned it 4 years and have had only regular maintanence that i would do on any other car....

14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
a.. its a sports car, built for speed with a little comfort, you dont like, buy a boring car

15) better tires
a... its called a tyre shop

16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
a... buy a hid kit, its not like they had those lights back then, look at the r32 and r33 liners, they are the same crap headlights

17) higher horse power outputs
a... it did, it was far more than the 240 quoted as proven by multiple dyno's

18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
a... what isnt smooth, i get very smooth power and usable boost of 1.2bar from 3600rpm

19) significantly better aesthetics
a.. you need to go to specsavers, the st205 is a fantastic looking car and doesnt look a day old.

[DEATH]

i have to say i dissagree with you on many many accounts... and heres why..

1) better in cabin road noise control
a... its a sports car, really... who cares? if you do, then buy an audi
2) newer/better standard driver interactive electronics
a.... again... electrics= more things to go wrong, il take being a good driver over fancy yaw diffs in evos etc..
3) navigation
a... its a called a tomtom, nav = more weight = pointless waste of money.
4) multi speaker high quality surround sound
a.... my st205 does have the multi speaker component system, yours obviously has the 4 speakers, not 8
5) electronic trip meter derived stats for things like fuel consumption and expected remaining fuel supply mileage
a... with less than 25mpg i dont want to see how fast my money dissapears thanks.
6) engine condition statistical data such as external ambient air temp, fuel tank meter readout (ltrs/gals)
a... again, all pointless crap for a sportscar, all i want is water and oil temp and oil pressure thankyou
7) service interval notifications
a... you should have the brains to know when to service your car if you own one of these.. if not, sell the car to someone who does.
8) oil level, coolant level, windshield wash bottle level dashboard display indicators
a... again, if your too lazy to use your eyes, you shouldnt own the car.
9) better suspension and handling
a... what planet are you on? with some good struts the gtfour handles like its on rails, ive out classed multiple r34 gtr and r33 gtr on the ring and donington park and bedford
10 better fuel economy
a... what do you expect, a 2l with anywhere upto 280bhp out the factory? if you want economy or moan about fuel consumption, buy a ford fiesta
11) better idle characteristics
a... what are you on? mine idles smooth at 750rpm, if yours doesnt, its crap
12) shorter braking distances
a.... on drugs or something? the st205 has awesome brakes, good pads like carbotechs will stop you dead far quicker than any evo or poohbaru
13) significantly higher levels of overall reliability
a... its a toyota, ive owned it 4 years and have had only regular maintanence that i would do on any other car....
14) smoother ride quality with less vibration from engine and drive train.
a.. its a sports car, built for speed with a little comfort, you dont like, buy a boring car
15) better tires
a... its called a tyre shop
16) better visibility through xenon discharge technology (sometimes steerable and self leveling)
a... buy a hid kit, its not like they had those lights back then, look at the r32 and r33 liners, they are the same crap headlights
17) higher horse power outputs
a... it did, it was far more than the 240 quoted as proven by multiple dyno's
18) smoother power delivery usually through newer cam phasing technologies
a... what isnt smooth, i get very smooth power and usable boost of 1.2bar from 3600rpm
19) significantly better aesthetics
a.. you need to go to specsavers, the st205 is a fantastic looking car and doesnt look a day old.

I couldn't agree more. Furthermore, I couldn't/wouldn't have been 1/2 as diplomatic with my responses as you were - kudos.
OP - I think you are driving the wrong car for you - ESPECIALLY if you think the looks and handling aren't up to your "standards"

The ST205 gen3 MAP sensored 3SGTE is a decent engine. It puts out ~ 220 to 230 all wheel (dynojet) horse power and about 215 pound force feet of torque in stock trim. Its fuel consumption is respectable especially off boost and generally it will take you from point A to point B as a very reliable fast cruiser without any complaints. If that makes you happy then read no further.

why waste time replying if you're happy with your ST205 as is? This thread is not for contented owners.

Who said we were happy with it stock [tho I would be if I wasn't a tuner and engineer by heart and practise]? Most of us 3S-GTE equipped Celica owners on this site have dumped insane amounts of cash into our 6GC's to improve the performance. And if there is one thing the 3S excels at it is taking mods and turning them into REAL gains.
Again - perhaps this is not the car for you?

The build you have just finished on your brother's motor may be astonishingly good. But ask yourself this question. Do you think you would get the owner of an evo X or 2010 STI hatch facinated enough with what you did to the car to consider selling their car to buy your brother's own?

And we should give a sh!t what they think why? Excuse my abrupt language but seriously...

I don't care how fast you can make the ST205. If that was the focal point of this discussion then we would be talking about tubbing out the car installing a roll cage doing a balls out horse power dyno queen build and putting racing slicks on the thing to make it go hard. Sadly even after doing all that someone may just fork out the cash for a factory sports car that will still hand you your breakfast.

If you think this is the point of modifying a GT4 then you are sadly mistaken. 1/4mile times and Dyno's are for OTHER car builds - if I have to explain to you the myriad of reasons as to why that is, then AGAIN, perhaps this not the car for you.
And one of the first rules any tuner should come to terms with is: There will ALWAYS be a faster car than yours.
For you I'll modify it a bit: There will always be a newer, factory competitive car with frilly little creature comforts to appeal to your rather odd GT4 owner's tastes than yours.

what i wish i could expect is that instead of jumping to another brand to achieve higher overall refinement and performance synonymous with sports cars of 2010, that die hard toyota fans would examine what the factors are that create this gap and attempt to address them with solutions that are available in 2010 that were not available in 1999 and before. I'm hoping that the approach taken when upgrading and modifying any aspect of the car would involve a thought process that would result in a finished product or result that is on par with what is expected in 2010 and not 1999.

I believe that if you had bothered to take a look at some of the member's cars on this very site you would see that that is PRECISELY what DOZENS of us have managed to achieve.

I also drive a lightly tuned Toyota trueno 1999 model with a 4AGE 20 valve blacktop engine and I can assure you that even though it makes less peak power it feels so much more refined in its power delivery especially on the highway that I can't help but wish that I could make the ST205 a multiple of the performance factor that exists in the 4AGE 20 valve form.
You can also feel the positive effects the lightness of the trueno has on actual performance in braking and cornering maneuvers.
The trueno feels like a more "intelligent" car whenever you put it through its paces on the roads.

Well there you go! Perhaps you should have stuck with your Trueno?

I intend to improve both power and handling as well as aesthetics and ergonomics of the 205 but I have no plans of giving up drivability in any form to achieve these goals. Furthermore I'm actually going to attempt to make it even more street worthy than it was when It came from the showroom.

I wish you every luck in your endeavor and I hope you can take the debate here in the spirit it was intended.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Dec 31, 2010 - 4:00 AM