True about GT86... Options

[malpaso]

At last I had chance to test GT86.... Car I hate . I hate it for 200HP and even more for 205 Nm of torque. Also I hate Toyota for their price policy. They sell it here in Europe for $39,000 (base price!!! should be $44,000 for top version) but with the same power as Scion FR-S that is for sale for $23,100 (base price) in the US.

Anyway back to the point. Back to my experience from the last weekend. Now you know I do not like that car so really wanted to see it fall in my eyes . Fortunately I had chance to:

- see drag race between GT86 and Celica GT-S (T23 Sport)
- drive GT86
- "drift" GT86 (drift means to loose grip when cornering for me . I'm not any drifter...)
- talk to other GT, ST Celica drivers and ask about opinion...

...to make as much as unbiased conclusion about GT86.

First what "numbers say". When taking curb weight, power (or torque) and loss between engine and the ground (that is important) for all models of Celica (T20, T23 - all European versions) and GT86, than just converting to percentage value (to easily compare it) you receive some interesting answers. Lets say GT86 is "standard" (100% value) than:

6gen
ST = power 58%, torque 76%
GT = power 80%, torque 85%
GT-Four = power 86%**, torque 103%*
7gen
GT = power 78%, torque 91%**
GT-S = power 94%*, torque 87%

*highest value
**second highest value

From you see above theory say GT-S has no chance to win drag race with GT86 (lower torque means lower ability to start fast enough and almost the same power gives zero chance to catch what GT-S loose with slower acceleration). And reality is exactly as numbers say. I have seen two drag races between GT-S and GT86. Both won by GT86.

Also numbers can help to guess what was experience of other drivers and why in fact just GT-S drivers accepted challenge to race GT86. ST owners were all impressed with GT86. To have suddenly for 40% more power and 25% more torque than they are used to have (especially on rear wheels) knocked them down all . Also GT drivers were not disappointed at all. You can feel those +20% from first moment. No question about this. Also this is reason no one of those wanted to drag race it (there was no point for this).

Numbers also say only at least competitors for GT86 were:

7gen. GT = just slightly lower torque so in case track is short enough and GT86 mess up take off 7gen GT can win. Unfortunately no one tried his luck.
7gen. GT-S = slightly less power in combination with long enough track ...and GT86's messed up take off also gave some chances to win. As I saw not happened. GT86 in both races lead from take off to finish.
6gen. GT-Four = unfortunately none was available around. Any stock GT-Four has higher torque so should lead from the start for 100%. On too long track may loose in the end (thanks to weight and too high loss between engine and wheels). But you never know till you see .

NOTE: Some people may say now: "you were there! You have GT-four so you could race GT86!" No, no... all wrong. I have SS-Four... so I could not . OK, no silly excuses now. Racing with GT86 was pointless with my car. It would be like grizzly bear fighting with raccoon bear. Just to compare above percentage values is my car against GT86: power 128%, torque 159%. That means 30% more power on wheels and for 60% better acceleration than GT86. It would be just about me showing off there...

To driving/"drifting" impressions. Since my feelings are "calibrated" to my car result was exactly what I expected. Not enough power, pitiful torque. Take off is effective (when your ass shakes with behind spinning rear wheels it is always effective ). When trying accelerate from 50mph to 70mph it took ages. It is - no kidding - horrible. Any diesel powered van can accelerate faster! But when cornering (and not controlled by electronic) you can feel the edge when car is sliding and when knot. The most fun is balancing on this edge just by gently playing with gas pedal. You do not need more. Just one leg and smile . Handling of this car is stunning. GT-Four just grips and holding the line. No fun. GT86 is different.

Now I need to slightly re-evaluate my opinion about GT86. I do not hate it as a car anymore (or lets say not that much as before). But but I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

End of story .

[doGGy]

Martin -

I want - every day - to overtake car FAST when I need it. That is why just this simple test was enough (in terms of every day used acceleration compared with my car = fat old ST205).

You really AINT DROVE it then. Really. Or drove it till 4K rpm in 6 gear... ever heard about Downshift? ... Fun starts at 5500rpm and last till very 7400 easily And once you in next gear - it aint over Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true... (i know that in your GT4 its a DIFERENT story - you dont need to downshift - you need to find some BOOOOOOst ) And once you in next gear - it aint over Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true...

Yes - GT4 is FAST. BUT - take the stock GT4 - and it would be close race between these 2. Stock GT4 and GT86 = GT86 would whop GT4's ass on ANY track - thats period. You are used to 350hp+ car - and THIS IS why it feels 'slow' for you... And to be honest - GT4 is not much more spacier Reading your description - it looks like GT86 is somthing like a Polski Fiat and your GT4 is Cadillac Devile..

About drift / grip - GT86 / FRS - with RIGHT combination tires pulled 1G in cornering test - now go figure... Really - dont JUDGE this car if you aint experienced it. And you picked WRONG car to compare it to... Really If you are trying to WRITE YOUR thoughts WHY YOU DONT NEED GT86 - then name this topic right then

In short I want sports car that can be used in normal life. ST205 meets all to the letter. GT86 is not... Damn is not.

No it doesnt. ST205 is 2 door, has a tiny trunk, not comfortible at all and so on - i can go day and night if you want. If you need a SPORTS car that can be used daily - get a STi, a FREAKING STi - it will be a 4 door (so you will be able to put a kid seat in it too!) it will have a NORMAL trunk! and you will be able to put a Roof rack on it also! And it will be atleast 10 times MORE fun to drive then ST205! Try it - and you will see! Dont close your eye to other options - and strap your self to freaking ST205 - cuz its not the worlds number 1 car at all

And YES - GT86 is a sports car for a NORMAL life - exept what you call a NORMAL life? For me NORMAL life - is havinga car that it was designed for - Daily - cheap / realible / low fuel consumption. Weekend - get what you want - cuz its YOUR weekend / free time toy!

I just have a NORMAL family car. By NORMAL i mean NORMAL - wich is economical, diesel (low end torque), spacy (i can carry LOTS OF THINGS at ONE TIME lol - not one thing from your list one time ) and its called Corolla Verso.And i DONT need to RACE / drag race with my family / friends on board... GT86 is my toy to play around, and then im playing - i DONT NEED 3 more people to be in my car Because i enjoy playing alone - and be responsible for my own life GT86 is ment to be LEGO in reall life. You are buing a BASE for a tune-up. Everything else - is just you imagination. It will be super fun car on the snow (not like oversized GT4 pig that all it does - understeers in EVERY corner...). GT86 is a bit histerical with its back end, but with the right setup (shocks / swaybars) it will be super smooth in the corners even in the wet / snow. Cant wait to be honest to try it out in winter....

This post has been edited by doGGy: Oct 1, 2012 - 2:21 PM

[malpaso]

Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true...

How you dare to judge me or what I write and can NOT READ IT at all!?

You really should ask your self question why you are here. Why you are between 6gc enthusiasts? That is first of all.

Second of all. BEFORE you say something about me, about something I wrote, my way of life... you should READ through it and use more than one brain cell to at least understand it. Start with first article, article that made you start this discussion. I'm really tired to see you twisting thing "I say" or even "never said"...

- Do I write ANYTHING about comparison of stock GT-four and GT86? Anything else but mathematically calculated number for all Celicas in terms of possible drag race? Read through my original article and quote me! Now think what you write ABOUT ME here (how I lie - not saying true - for example)...

- Do I write ANYTHING about wanting change my car for any other car? Complaining I miss something my car do not have? Do I need advice what to do with my life? Now think about why you write in stile "you want? buy! (Verso, STi...)" or comparing our lives (comparing incomparable btw).

- Do I write ANYTHING about GT86 has worse handing than ST205? Look to my first article and quote me. You know what? I will help you and quote my self that part + bolt important parts related to handling.:

...when cornering (and not controlled by electronic) you can feel the edge when car is sliding and when knot. The most fun is balancing on this edge just by gently playing with gas pedal. You do not need more. Just one leg and smile . Handling of this car is stunning. GT-Four just grips and holding the line. No fun. GT86 is different.

Now... remember your last article (especially parts when you comment what I should or parts when "discovering" how my driving is used to have boosted car and can not be the same) and think why you had feeling wrote it at all... Reason why? Especially after quotation from my first article:

To driving/"drifting" impressions. Since my feelings are "calibrated" to my car result was exactly what I expected. Not enough power, pitiful torque...

- than last thing is "conclusions". Do I wrote GT86 is bad car, useless, rubbish... and ST205 the top of the world? The best car ever drove? Find it and quote it or remain silent please. I'm really tired or reading about something I did not wrote here. Again I help you to share with opinion I said:

Now I need to slightly re-evaluate my opinion about GT86. I do not hate it as a car anymore (or lets say not that much as before). But but I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

That is all in terms GT86 vs stock ST205. I do not have stock ST205, I do not have garage full of other cars. Just this one and answer on question about: "Would you change GT86 for SS-four" is: No, I would not and not even if anyone paid me to do that. Because I have own reasons that has nothing to do with how ST205/GT86 is bad/great. My own reasons. If you try to judge my reasons this topic will be locked (or I erase all my posts - what ever) because I hate when someone who do not know me is trying to judge my private reasons. Is that clear?

note: you think I treat you unjustly about what you say? here is example you take this conversation personal with me not about two cars. You judge me and compare with you. I never did (or even "would do") that:

And i DONT need to RACE / drag race with my family / friends on board... GT86 is my toy to play around, and then im playing - i DONT NEED 3 more people to be in my car Because i enjoy playing alone - and be responsible for my own life

This is clear example you put this to personal level "your opinion is bad my is right". First of all I never wrote I put my family to danger racing with them - why you think I should? More over... I never drag raced. With my car or any other. I do not drag... (guess why I not grabbed chance to drag with GT86 and show her my tails lights) the same as I do not drift. I do not have car for this purpose. I use my as fast "grand touring" car to enjoy trips with my family and enjoying every single advantage it gives to me (advantage what GT86 can not). Now stop. I DID NOT SAY THERE IS NOT ANY OTHER CAR IN THIS PLANET BETTER FOR THIS (Read + think). I do not talk about any other cars. I talk about my car - car I have - and about GT86 in the same situation, Situation so common for my life. Do not try to judge "common situations" in my life in comparison of yours. This article is not about my or your live.

In fact only relevant - not personal - thing you wrote here:

...GT86 is ment to be LEGO in reall life. You are buing a BASE for a tune-up. Everything else - is just you imagination.

Exactly relevant to my conclusion:

...I hate twice more Toyota (as company) for:

a) not make it for 50% stronger/faster (with this price tag) -> make it 300HP/305Nm and I have no issue to pay 40k for it.
b) not selling it for half here (with this power) -> give it price tag 23k (as to Scion in US) and I will say not a single word about power.

That is my biggest "issue" with GT86 (nothing else):
For 40k I do not want just LEGO... as LEGO is deserving to have half price tag (to let me spent other half into "imaginations").

Can you accept that opinion Romas?

That leads me to Box...

Wait, answer to your problems:
...
It's faster and roomier than both. So everyone get along and appreciate each car for what it is and what it isn't.

Do have nay idea why I wrote this article? Do I have problems with my car (quote me)? Do I look for replacement for my car (quote me)? Read + think OR ignore. Please. That is only I ask.

Thank you...

To moderators: if you have feeling this discussion turned to too much emotional level and do not fill original purpose do not hesitate and lock it. Only i did is shared with experience to 6gc enthusiasts and received only comparison of my personal preferences against other who disagree with them.

[Box]

That leads me to Box...

Wait, answer to your problems:
...
It's faster and roomier than both. So everyone get along and appreciate each car for what it is and what it isn't.

Do have nay idea why I wrote this article? Do I have problems with my car (quote me)? Do I look for replacement for my car (quote me)? Read + think OR ignore. Please. That is only I ask.

Don't get smart with me. Did I ever say any of those things? No. So you read. I was trying to make the point that both of you are being silly. There's always going to be a better car, for whatever situation. So everyone get the **** along and stop the goddamned bickering.

[malpaso]

Don't get smart with me. Did I ever say any of those things? No. So you read. I was trying to make the point that both of you are being silly. There's always going to be a better car, for whatever situation. So everyone get the **** along and stop the goddamned bickering.

Box... again. Do you have any idea why I wrote this article? You think it was about to find "better car, for whatever situation"? Do you understand from what I wrote I deny there I no any better car? I simply miss the point of your answers. The point why you bringing them here. Especially after I already gave answer to you on 'Sep 30, 2012 - 3:44 PM' by post #'989171'. That is all.

Martin - you took all this WAY WAY too personal... I never wanted to insult or make you feel bad about this topic - if i did - i would never put any smiles in my writings... But OH WELL...

Pity you never used smiles when writing how you can not read my topic because it is full of lies. To say someone is not saying true is damn personal...

Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true... (i know that in your GT4 its a DIFERENT story - you dont need to downshift - you need to find some BOOOOOOst ) And once you in next gear - it aint over Just cant read what you are trying to say about this car - cuz 80% of this isnt true...

So when you followed quotation above with comparison of my priories of life and yours in style "my is right, your is not" it was just about enough for me. For me is all right you have different priories of you life. I just cannot follow "me, my self and no one else" philosophy. I prefer to share with friends or family moments I enjoy in my life. Not being alone when I'm happy. But that do not mean I can say "your way is wrong". I respect it but will not follow. That's it. Anyway. As you see this has nothing to do with GT86 vs Celica.

In this topic I never meant to talk about life priorities or preferences but about cars. When making any conclusions only based on general facts (anyone can find & check) and personal feeling (and every time I wrote personal feeling I mentioned that situation and explained why). Reason is to describe as much as possible "my scales" and let other people to make own one. To give them chance to "re-calibrate" personal opinion against mine (because it is obvious everyone can have different priorities). I just described conditions under I had chance to test it and feeling I had. Nothing else. No conclusion how bad/great/better/worse car it is. Really if you can find enough strength and read my first topic you can see it. Loud and clear.

To my asked question "Why you are between 6gc enthusiasts?". From you wrote from very beginning I had feeling you forgot where you are and what people you can find here. This is not general car-enthusiast forum. People here are interested in '94-'99 Toyota Celica cars. That is why is relevant to compare GT86 just to those cars (what ever are different). Just to Celicas. Also the fact 86 concept it self was presented from first moment as 8gen Celica everyone here focused on it. My point never was to review the car but at least to compare it with Celicas in only way it could be compared. By numbers + describe my feeling driving it first time (under conditions I already mentioned). What followed got us in this moment...

Love it 10x more then ANY GT-Four. As i said before GT-Four is a boat... boat on water... As FRS is a jetski. Period. GT-four is OK for power - but if we are talking about GT-four - then i would take any GC chasis STi over GT-four ANYTIME.

You can NOT compare GT86 / FRS / BRZ to a GT-four - thats a differnet league car.

Martin - if you spent week driving GT86 - we could talk then - and you COULD compare cars by then... But after few Km's - its crazy a bit to give opinion.... And if you are only driving in straight line - then you need a dragster then....

etc... just responses showing you do not understand what I wrote and why (probably because you do not read it or you are light years away from Celica enthusiasts and not able to understand it... I do not know). I really have nothing more to say about this topic. Have fun with it the way you wish.