st 204 turbo Options

[thorshammer]

So basically its the 98 block with 95 head and (just guessing) you wire the crank angel sensor into the megasquirt?

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

[lagos]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

It requires a few modifications to use (particularly installing a Zeal Dual VR conditioner board.

Taking measures from the crank directly is way more accurate than having the ECU translate the cam revolutions into crank revolutions, since what it actually needs is crank position and not cam position. (cam position is only necessary for sequential ignition if I'm not mistaken, and really only one tooth is necessary, you don't need a trigger wheel on the distributor for COP ignition if you have a crank angle sensor with a trigger wheel mounted on the crankshaft itself.)

Believe me when I say it works much, much better with the crank sensor than the distributor from the 5S. I don't know if you've ever seen one on the inside, but the distributor on the 5S has a weird trigger wheel, it's not exactly a trigger wheel like the conventional ones (36-1, 36-2, 60-2, 24-1 etc)

Besides, distributors aren't better than the wasted spark coils that the 98+ Camry engines have. They put out more energy than the stock distributor ignition coil, too, and there's absolutely no chance of interference from the magnetic field generated by the coils since the crankshaft position sensor is down there, and the coils are all the way up here.

[lagos]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

It requires a few modifications to use (particularly installing a Zeal Dual VR conditioner board.

It might require the Zeal board, but only if you are using the standard MS2/PCB setup. The DIYPNP kit (microsquirt based) I used on my 3s had an optional LM1815 circuit included, but I never needed to use it. All I had to do was install a 33 kohm pull down resistor, to lower the pickup threshold for the the cam signal. The NE crank signal had no problems being picked up with or without a pull down resistor.

Because of this I think the DIYPNP kits are the best solutions for the 5s/3s. Same setup that I have should work with a 5s distributor (aren't all toyota distributors 24-1?) , and if you happen to find out that you need to run the signal through the conditioner, there is one included on the circuit board.

You might be able to get a crank only setup to work, but personally Id rather have sequential injection.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 8, 2013 - 10:41 PM

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

It requires a few modifications to use (particularly installing a Zeal Dual VR conditioner board.

It might require the Zeal board, but only if you are using the standard MS2/PCB setup. The DIYPNP kit (microsquirt based) I used on my 3s had an optional LM1815 circuit included, but I never needed to use it. All I had to do was install a 33 kohm pull down resistor, to lower the pickup threshold for the the cam signal. The NE crank signal had no problems being picked up with or without a pull down resistor.

Because of this I think the DIYPNP kits are the best solutions for the 5s/3s. Same setup that I have should work with a 5s distributor (aren't all toyota distributors 24-1?) , and if you happen to find out that you need to run the signal through the conditioner, there is one included on the circuit board.

You might be able to get a crank only setup to work, but personally Id rather have sequential injection.

Again, the 3S distributor is different. If I could take a picture of the 5S 93+ distributor I would right now but I don't have a camera. Trust me when I say it's not 24-1, and it has no cam AND "crank" wheel on the distributor. It's only got 4 slanted teeth that send a particular signal that CANNOT be properly interpreted in its full extent by the traditional MS2.

DIYPNP is different. I'm talking about what I've dealt with which is MS2, and now will deal with MS3X. In reality, everyone should run MS2 with crank trigger wheel and wasted spark. It can run sequential injection with just the crank trigger wheel. You don't need cam and crank triggers for sequential injection. You need the cam signal only for true COP. Wasted spark works fine, though. If it didn't, Mitsubishi wouldn't have used it in the 4g63 for many years.

It's not a "might be able" to get a crank-only setup to work. It simply works. You might not have had the starting issues that I had with my 5S running on a bare MS2. Sometimes it would crank and start, sometimes it would not. The MS2 doesn't like the stock distributor wheel on the 5S. It does however love the 36-2 wheel and stock sensor.

Think about it: why try to get something to work, when something else simply just does? The DIYPNP isn't worth it when you take into consideration that the normal MS2 works fine if you use a regular crank trigger wheel.

Personally, I prefer having the wiring loom on the regular MS2 and now the MS3. I can splice in that extra connection when needed much easier than I can on the DIYPNP. I don't mean to sound condescending or anything really, I'm just sharing what I know which I believe is a lot more simple.

[lagos]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

[Syaoran]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

[lagos]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

So once your friend swapped over to the pre 93 distributor, he had to modify it by shaving off one of the teeth to get that setup to work with MS2 because the G1/G2 signal wouldn't pick up, right?

I think there is a difference in how that whole circuit is run between the standard MS2 and the Diypnp PCB boards. The DIYPNP has a circuit for adjustment of the signal coming from the distributor, is there such a thing on the standard MS2? I believe that on Toyota distributors, the problem isn't so much that there is noise or anything that needs to be conditioned. Its more of an issue with the signal being fairly weak and needing adjustment to get picked up. I know that that this has been an issue for years, and it was one of the things that kept me from installing ms2 all these years (I wanted a plug and play solution).

I originally really struggled with getting mine to work, as it didn't want to work even with the pull down resistors the DIYPNP uses. It wasn't until I switched from g1 to g2 cam pick up that the entire thing starting working correctly.

This is some good info btw. Id like to really know what can/can't work with the 94+ 5sfe when it comes to megasquirt.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 9, 2013 - 1:02 AM

[Syaoran]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

So once your friend swapped over to the pre 93 distributor, he had to modify it by shaving off one of the teeth to get that setup to work with MS2 because the G1/G2 signal wouldn't pick up, right?

I think there is a difference in how that whole circuit is run between the standard MS2 and the Diypnp PCB boards. The DIYPNP has a circuit for adjustment of the signal coming from the distributor, is there such a thing on the standard MS2? I believe that on Toyota distributors, the problem isn't so much that there is noise or anything that needs to be conditioned. Its more of an issue with the signal being fairly weak and needing adjustment to get picked up. I know that that this has been an issue for years, and it was one of the things that kept me from installing ms2 all these years (I wanted a plug and play solution).

I originally really struggled with getting mine to work, as it didn't want to work even with the pull down resistors the DIYPNP uses. It wasn't until I switched from g1 to g2 cam pick up that the entire thing starting working correctly.

This is some good info btw. Id like to really know what can/can't work with the 94+ 5sfe when it comes to megasquirt.

I'm not entirely sure but I believe that he did it not because he was having issues but because he knew it would work like that. He ground the tooth off prior to re-configuring the setup.

I can't answer that question regarding the circuit for adjustment of the signal, as my knowledge on the circuitry aspect of the MS is limited in some areas. I didn't build mine, nor will I build the MS3X. The same person who built my MS2 will build the MS3X I am going to be running. I don't remember seeing anything for adjusting signals coming from the VR sensor other than a potentiometer that could be adjusted in order to get a (cleaner?) signal going through the RPM circuit of the MS2. It might be that, but I'm not sure.

[lagos]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

So once your friend swapped over to the pre 93 distributor, he had to modify it by shaving off one of the teeth to get that setup to work with MS2 because the G1/G2 signal wouldn't pick up, right?

I think there is a difference in how that whole circuit is run between the standard MS2 and the Diypnp PCB boards. The DIYPNP has a circuit for adjustment of the signal coming from the distributor, is there such a thing on the standard MS2? I believe that on Toyota distributors, the problem isn't so much that there is noise or anything that needs to be conditioned. Its more of an issue with the signal being fairly weak and needing adjustment to get picked up. I know that that this has been an issue for years, and it was one of the things that kept me from installing ms2 all these years (I wanted a plug and play solution).

I originally really struggled with getting mine to work, as it didn't want to work even with the pull down resistors the DIYPNP uses. It wasn't until I switched from g1 to g2 cam pick up that the entire thing starting working correctly.

This is some good info btw. Id like to really know what can/can't work with the 94+ 5sfe when it comes to megasquirt.

I'm not entirely sure but I believe that he did it not because he was having issues but because he knew it would work like that. He ground the tooth off prior to re-configuring the setup.

I can't answer that question regarding the circuit for adjustment of the signal, as my knowledge on the circuitry aspect of the MS is limited in some areas. I didn't build mine, nor will I build the MS3X. The same person who built my MS2 will build the MS3X I am going to be running. I don't remember seeing anything for adjusting signals coming from the VR sensor other than a potentiometer that could be adjusted in order to get a (cleaner?) signal going through the RPM circuit of the MS2. It might be that, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, he did it because it was a very common issue and grinding off a tooth was a recommended solution to get things working in the early days . The DIYPNP now has the adjustments needed to get it working with the stock setup on the 3s (and maybe even the 5s) distributor without modification. They ended up using the DIYPNP as a basis for their MSPNP that they officially sell for the 3s.

You should really solder your own board. Its not hard at all and kind of a fun project.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 9, 2013 - 1:55 AM

[thorshammer]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Thanks I toyed with the idea of swapping out the ecu and loom completely to match the engine as a exercise in curiosity but maybe no. I have a line on some RX7 non turbo 460cc injectors high impedance at last bloody hard to find down here.

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Thanks I toyed with the idea of swapping out the ecu and loom completely to match the engine as a exercise in curiosity but maybe no. I have a line on some RX7 non turbo 460cc injectors high impedance at last bloody hard to find down here.

If you're gonna run Megasquirt, don't limit yourself to RX-7 Injectors. With it, you can run anything that fits.

Personally, I'd recommend these, which fit: "Miata" 550CC High Impedance Injectors

They use the same OEM plug and are the same length as the OEM injectors. They use a different nozzle for firing the fuel which is more efficient than the pintle-type RX-7 injector as an added bonus.

[Syaoran]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

[thorshammer]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

Im just going with what is suggested, personally I thought 460 was a little to big for what I needed. This seems like a better deal cause I would have had to have the others serviced as well and here that costs about $30 per unit

[Syaoran]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

Im just going with what is suggested, personally I thought 460 was a little to big for what I needed. This seems like a better deal cause I would have had to have the others serviced as well and here that costs about $30 per unit

The only reason why 460cc are suggested is because most people who turbocharged the 5S... scratch that, EVERYONE who turbocharged the 5S in the past went with a piggyback. They all can only scale the injectors so much, that if you were to get bigger than 460cc it would be a little difficult to tune the off-boost part of the map.

With a megasquirt, you input your injector size and you can scale them to whatever pulse width you prefer. Technically it'll behave like a stock car off-boost (leaner than stock, if you want, to save a lot of fuel), and it'll dump in the necessary fuel when on boost.

I personally recommend you get the 550cc and wait until the Megasquirt is installed. I'd rather run a large injector at 50% duty cycle than an injector that is just enough at 90% duty cycle.

[thorshammer]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

Im just going with what is suggested, personally I thought 460 was a little to big for what I needed. This seems like a better deal cause I would have had to have the others serviced as well and here that costs about $30 per unit

The only reason why 460cc are suggested is because most people who turbocharged the 5S... scratch that, EVERYONE who turbocharged the 5S in the past went with a piggyback. They all can only scale the injectors so much, that if you were to get bigger than 460cc it would be a little difficult to tune the off-boost part of the map.

With a megasquirt, you input your injector size and you can scale them to whatever pulse width you prefer. Technically it'll behave like a stock car off-boost (leaner than stock, if you want, to save a lot of fuel), and it'll dump in the necessary fuel when on boost.

I personally recommend you get the 550cc and wait until the Megasquirt is installed. I'd rather run a large injector at 50% duty cycle than an injector that is just enough at 90% duty cycle.

Are these what you had in mind. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-1989-92-RX-7...054&vxp=mtr
Think I owe you and a few others a beer or 3 if I ever get back to the States again

This post has been edited by thorshammer: Jul 10, 2013 - 12:37 AM

[Syaoran]

Are these what you had in mind. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-1989-92-RX-7...054&vxp=mtr
Think I owe you and a few others a beer or 3 if I ever get back to the States again

The first ones I linked you are the ones I purchased and fit into my fuel rail and head, and are the exact same plugs as the OEM Denso injectors.

Haha that would be nice but I'm in Puerto Rico

[thorshammer]

Thanks for everybodys help and input but after adding it all up have decided that the cost of doing this properly is prohibitive. I lived in Texas for 6 months awhile back and the cost of stuff over there compared to here is like chalk and cheese. Its also unlikely I could get it engineered legal, when I was young dumb and full of cum that didnt matter so much but nowadays its a bit different. Thanks again all when I get it finished will post some pics in the unmodified section-cheers

[delusionz]

I didn't know the megasquirt interpolates values, i'm not sure if my ecu does that or not

but i do know that for example if boost references are 5psi apart... and say you had references -5, 0, 5, 10 etc, then optimal timing would be at those points, but 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 etc psi levels will have less than optimal timing

i'm betting if i had 50x50 over 20x20 i'd have more overall torque and smoother power, and my highboost where i run out of resolution would be alot more punchy