3sgte overheating at over 600+ bhp?<ADDED SKETCH>, My head wants to explode~! help please Options

[monkey]

So before my brain explodes, i thought id ask yall if this made any sense....
some of you know i am looking into building a very powerful engine eithor out of a 5sgte 3sgte or a 503e... with that said i have reached a block inmy thinking...
any help is appriciated.....

I recently just read this thread and it goes really indepth.... i took some of their ideas and fused them with mine and others and came up with a quite possible solution...
link at bottom of post......


on a st185 3sgte compared to a 185 3sgte TTE, the TTE's crank was apparently mounted 3mm below the OEM's spec, thus shaving off the top 3mm from the deck and continuing the headbolts down another 20mm to hold the head on, whats the reason behind doing this? I dont see one logical reason at all besides the extention of headbolts.. !!!! TTE head bolts are known to stretch and give thus making them superior to arp studs... which snap or crack the block....
now on the caldina from eithor 98 or 99 they also went along with the 3mm lowering but not the extending of the head bolts... then in the st165 they made the blocks alot thicker making the cylinderbody less likely to crack... now the 3sgte is known for having thin walls in the first place, making cooling an important must when making over 600bhp... sleves are not a nice option... dont suggest because theyve alreaddy done it and in high boost they come to utter failure.... the st1665 seemed like a better deal due to the fact you could over bore and not only lengthen the head bolts but widen also making it harder to bust the head off under high boost... now we come to a problem when the mechanical waterpump starts pumping so quick the block cant exchance energy with the cold water running through it.... thus cracking the block... thats bad... this is why they couldnt use the 3sgte engines in the rally cars... thus why they build there own racing engines... but if one could simply keep the oil and water temperature the same and low they could eliminate this problem, i herd someone talk about adding a swirl tank and swapping for a electric water pump, but electric water pumps apparently dont last long... but if one could take the mechanical water pump, but also tap into the system before and after the pump and adding a electric pump that can be switched on at a "hotter" temp, and installing a blow off valve when the mechanical pump starts generating too much flow, with apipe that leads to a overflow/swirltank thats between the head and the radiator, you could eventually stop the massive flow and keep a steady controlled flow at high rpm's with the electic thus using both pumps in their "best" areas persae than installing a oil cooler and installing thermostates that eithor notify the driver or cpu that it needs to be flipped to electrical or if its low enough to go back to mechanical.... than making the change...

now with the electrical water pump you could also ghetto rig a turbo timer to keep the waterflow going after engine cut off so the engine doesnt develope "spot boiling" thus cracking the engine....

It just makes sence to have a shiftpoint between the two pumps at a certain rpm consitering that with higher rpms higher heat, the engine is measured in rpm's the tranny is making you go faster.... so with that said, it could be completely standalone even......

would this sound like a logical solution to the problem common in 600+bhp 3sgte's

or should one just shell out the cash and get the 503e since it was built for the insaine temps that a rally car enures....

or did i just confuse alot of you with random jibber jabber......


http://www.gt4oc.net/forums/viewtopic.php?...p;sk=t&sd=a

This post has been edited by monkey: Jun 14, 2008 - 12:17 AM

[Havok1997GT]

well im lost.

[monkey]

hmmm this might help.....



and if one reads the thread linked to my post it helps alot too!

This post has been edited by monkey: Jun 14, 2008 - 12:10 AM

[presure2]

your WAY overthinking.

TTE extended the head bolts cause at that level, cause the head wants to lift off the block (search the name "noshoes" on mr2oc.com for an explanation and pics.)

thats why ATS now sells the L19 head bolts. (at ~ 500$ a set IIRC)

there are no cooling issues with the 3s. (other than cracking the block itself)

a 600hp build is easy.
lots of forged parts, some good headwork, an adequate for the job fuel system, a monster turbo, and EMS to control it all.
done.

[DEATH]

Oh - is that all Pressure?
Interesting thread tho at any rate. The "Anti-decking", for lack of a better word, of the block was a new concept for me [No big surprise really]. I'll read up more on this tho I'll never need it as an option apparently.

Side note: I just love how they say "making them superior to arp studs... which snap or crack the block"
Don't you just love it when you overpay for parts for peice of mind and then read something like this? I'm just gonna assume that for my meager goals [350WHP/350Tq - absolutely max - ever] that I still made the right choice [ARP Headstuds and TTE MHG from ChrisK] and go back to feeling secure at least in that area of my recent engine build.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jun 14, 2008 - 9:19 AM

[lagos]

Why is there a Bov in the drawing?

[laff09]

Thats what i was curious of lagos, would that 'blow-off' the excess air created in the system by having two pumps or what? were/are they designed to do this? just curious questions here, i like how your thinking outside of the box.

[stephen_lee]

the BOV is to "blow off" the excess water flow of the mechanical water pump at high rpms

[monkey]

the BOV is to "blow off" the excess water flow of the mechanical water pump at high rpms

exactly... because at high rpm's the mechanical pump is pushing the water through the engine too fast for the heat exchange to occur... thus inducing the cracking..... so if i slow it down or cut it off completely and send it to another area and use a electrically controlled pump, i mightave solved it....
or i just read everything wrong and im going insaine for no reason....
but if i was looking to push an engine to 750+ hp i would apparently have this cooling problem....
in the article it said that the cracking is due to overheating..... is this correct?

im not gunna lie, i dont know if i fully understanded this part, but i really want to learn so if any of yall do understand it fully please correct me!

lol i agree with pressure 2 in the fact that im overthinging it, but i cant stop thinking about it..... its stuck in my head.....

This post has been edited by monkey: Jun 14, 2008 - 11:52 AM

[lagos]

Thats not how a bov works.

[monkey]

lol im not THAT stupid, im just useing that as an example, just use a valve that would function "LIKE" a bov... same kinda idea....

[lagos]

lol im not THAT stupid, im just useing that as an example, just use a valve that would function "LIKE" a bov... same kinda idea....

Its still not how a bov work. Bov's work based on changes in vac, not based on changes in rpm or pressure. If anything, you would need a thermostat.

The whole concept is silly because your power goals are pretty much unlimited.
Cracking happens from excessive heat in the cylinder walls. Why does this happen? Cooling system is only a small part of it. The real reason is because of the amount of boost/combustion going on. Running race gas, along with water injection, and a HUGE turbo with a 2.2l 5sGte is what you should be reading up on.... and even then, lower your goals down to something realistic.

There is/was a 700hp mr2 up for sale not to long ago. I think he wanted about 20-30grand for it, which is a killer deal.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jun 14, 2008 - 12:16 PM

[monkey]

haha ill get tired of a lower hp goal.... im looking to go above 700 atleast... i know itll take time and money but it is a project that i am wanting to take my time on and enjoy for a long time..... by no means am i wanting this thing to be built within the next 2 years... im talkin doing major reaserch so that everyhting is done perfect... and it would inclube 2 thermostats anyways... one for oil and one for water..

but if what your telling me is that the boost and all the combustion going on with nitrous and racegas and all others that would make sence too, so should i just think about a deifferent kind ov engine consitering that toyotas have thin walls.... which brings me to my next question... does anyone know if the 5s walls are thicker than the 3s?
because if thats true i would stick to the 5sgte and trash the 3s... now i want to find out if the 5sgte pushed ot a 700 whp limit would cost more than a 503e?

afterall if i wanted to just do a 500 hp 3s id be doing it right now...

This post has been edited by monkey: Jun 14, 2008 - 12:25 PM

[lagos]

I think you should be looking into a supra.

[terqui]

700hp FWD 3s is gonna be undriveable.

[D-Man]

x2 @ terqui

Monkey; The 3s walls are thicker. also, if your gunna go thru with this massive and ultimately unpractical cooling system (Deff unique though ) Instead of a switch, you need to put a relay so that your not flipping a switch every few seconds. Automate it man, automate it (Unless you just like throwing toggles back and forth )

Honnestly, for you to build a 3sgte up to 700+ it'd be much more practical to get a different car / engine. your trying to achieve MASSIVE goals from a rather small engine. You've got a great idea here, just a faulty medium. Apply these ideas to a cobra or something... do a celica conversion w/ badges & custom rear work. We can make a celica out of another car; but you're about to over shoot the capabilities of the 3s motor far beyond reality & fantasy

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jun 19, 2008 - 11:02 AM

[playr158]

:lmao: water bov :lmao:

this is good stuff

[monkey]

its going into a mr2... lol
mid engine rwd... lol

but the 5sfe's block walls are thicker and have different cooling passages and no weak spot between cylinders #2 and 3 thus when making a 5sgte, its capable of more boost nasty sexiness...

anyone can build a fast supra or v8 for all that matter.... but i want a project that will keep my mind boggleing and challange me... the 3s has been proven to rum 800+ hp so why cant it be me that builds another....
when i got to thinking about it, theres no reason why i shouldnt be able to build a 5sfe that powerfull... just determination...
also, big power into small dinky package gets you money! (on the track that is...)
i agree it is a rediculous idea pushing 800+ out of a 4 cylinder, but im a rediculous guy.....

i think im gunna change the title to My Rediculous Engine Idea, and soon to be build......

This post has been edited by monkey: Jun 19, 2008 - 1:33 PM

[presure2]

its really not that "rediculous".
its been done, and not really a huge deal, just costs some serious coin.
1600cc injectors, gt-42, RMR intake manifold, OS (1mm) valves, lots of headwork, slugs and rods of your choice, 272's GOOD ems, and a GREAT tuner, and your easily on your way.
update us when you get it done.
/thread.

[Alan]

I know this thread is very old but Has anyone ever made longer studs on a 3rd gen 3SGTE? How much material is there under the holes where the studs actually go how do we know that there are no oil passages running through there I can seem to find any evidence that supports this but this seems like a good idea to do so the block is way thicker at the bottom and this along with the modified cooling system sounds like it could work for high boost applications.

Any links available as I cant find anyone who has done it and posted it ...