3rd Generation ST205 3SGTE Celica VS. 4th Generation ST215 3SGTE Caldi, Comparisons Options

[4-eyed-freek]

The 2gr is a monster engine, only problem is its about as maxed out as it gets performance wise once swapped. a few bolt on's and the 3s is on par if not exceeding the performance of the 2gr.
On a side note, dat v6 sound track wouldn't get old

[lagos]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

The Map sensor is the most essential part and the hardest to find. You can source the igniter and coil from ebay for a few bucks since those are common in a few Toyotas.

People recommend buying a clip because it ensures you get every little thing like all of the parts of the heat exchanger, and it help to be able to label things as you uninstall them if its your first time working on a project like this.

[4-eyed-freek]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

The Map sensor is the most essential part and the hardest to find. You can source the igniter and coil from ebay for a few bucks since those are common in a few Toyotas.

People recommend buying a clip because it ensures you get every little thing like all of the parts of the heat exchanger, and it help to be able to label things as you uninstall them if its your first time working on a project like this.

www.primemr2.com has map sensors for both 3rd and 4th gens

[trdproven]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

The Map sensor is the most essential part and the hardest to find. You can source the igniter and coil from ebay for a few bucks since those are common in a few Toyotas.

People recommend buying a clip because it ensures you get every little thing like all of the parts of the heat exchanger, and it help to be able to label things as you uninstall them if its your first time working on a project like this.

First time doing a project like thus the research, everything I've done to my car and all my friends cars are first time, not scared at all and I basically have a shop at my house. I leaned to a 4th gen cus my wiring skills are not great which I could just pay to get it done. My concern for the 3rd gen is making sure I have everything to complete a swap. I'll still be researching with everyone's help. Searching still for a st205 front to complete it at the same time

Thanks to everyone, I hope we keep 6gc going.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 27, 2016 - 9:02 PM

[pitcelica]

- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen

About this, even if the bolt pattern seems different because the number of holes on the 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't the same as the 3rd gen, you can still bolt a 3rd gen exhaust manifold on a 4th gen head. So, by definition, the bolt pattern is the same. The 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't using all the available studs on the head (especially the top left, upper one)

As for the turbo naming, it is now a convention (at least on the 3SGTE-related forums) that the 3rd gen is a CT20b and the 4th gen is the CT15b. So, I think it would be wise to modify your first post about the turbo name.

Have a good day!

Sam

[trdproven]

- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen

About this, even if the bolt pattern seems different because the number of holes on the 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't the same as the 3rd gen, you can still bolt a 3rd gen exhaust manifold on a 4th gen head. So, by definition, the bolt pattern is the same. The 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't using all the available studs on the head (especially the top left, upper one)

As for the turbo naming, it is now a convention (at least on the 3SGTE-related forums) that the 3rd gen is a CT20b and the 4th gen is the CT15b. So, I think it would be wise to modify your first post about the turbo name.

Have a good day!

Sam

Thanks Sam, makes sense as I've heard about the bolt pattern being different but just like the 3rd gen not being exact as the 5s doesn't mean it won't bolt on, good info.

For the ct20b there's a lot of info on it being a ct20 but a ct15 makes more sense for a quicker spool.

[Patrick3sgte]

I was bored so I compiled this info together. I'm actually researching into this a bit. I wanted to get some info onto our own site, as its possible we might head into this movement as the mr2 homies are.

ST205 3rd Gen 3sgte

ST215 4th Gen 3sgte


3rd Generation ST205 3SGTE Celica VS. 4th Generation ST215 3SGTE Caldina
- 4th gen essentially needs only the motor, ECU, and everything that goes with the harness wiring while the 3rd gen pretty much needs the front clip or all the accessories complete
- 4th gen has a larger throttle body
- 4th gen uses ct15 vs 3rd gen ct20 turbo
- 4th gen uses a one-piece turbo/manifold vs 3rd gen but you can still get your own or make your own manifold and pick your own turbo
- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen but still fits same for all S family if 3rd can fit on 5s and 3rd can fit on 4th
- 4th gen different downpipe than the 3rd gen
- 4th gen Intercooler is Air to Air vice Air to Water on the 3rd Gen (Run FMIC for 4th gen unless you switch to air to water setup or create a Caldina style air scoop)
- Both 540cc/min injectors but 4th gen has top feed high impedance vs 3rd gen side feed low impedance
- 4th gen – quicker spooling turbo
- 4th gen has COP (Coil on Plug) while 3rd gen has distributor
- 4th Gen manifold is better with side feed while 3rd gen is almost a center feed
- Midpipe will need to be welded to connect downpipe and rest of exhaust – same for both gens
- S Family transmission or E153 transmission both fits keep the axles and shift cables based on the transmission you use. So you have to match your mounts to transmission as well.
Same Engine Mounts as GT, You can use a 3s flywheel, 3s pressure plate, and a 3s disc splined for 5s or just use the 5s disc.
- Radiator hoses stay the same, either use 5S or 3S
- 4th Gen now is getting cheaper and doable many shops like chico and prime have done many on celicas, mr2s, and even rav4s – more 4th gens are now popping up for sale
- Essentially and by assumption a 4th gen would provide a less beat up engine with low miles since it was mostly an automatic from Japan and newer, but that’s not guaranteed.
- 4th gen requires axle carrier bearing locating pins since the 2nd/3rd gens had them already pressed in but the 4th gen is missing them – get it from Primemr2 and press or tap it in
- 4th gen requires tach adapter. This device converts the tachometer signal from the Gen4 engine to be compatible with the existing tachometer
- Both still need the Supra TT fuel pump or Walbro 255
- 4th gen prior has mentioned internals are weaker such as the rods, but it was found that many of the internal part numbers are the same than 3rd gen.
- 4th gen cylinder walls are thicker than 3rd gen
- 4th gen runs a 9:0:1 compression ratio rather than the 8:5:1 of the 3rd gen
- External drive belts should be the same I believe
- 5S 2.2L PS and AC is possible to mount on to the 4th gen same as 3rd gen
- Head gaskets may be different I’m not sure but I see them as two different part numbers
- Question lies: Where do you get replacement parts for the ST215? It’s difficult to say at this point where a good source is at but with the 4th gen movement some used parts may soon become move available. I’m starting to see some parts being sold on ebay and other sites.
- Other info: The combustion chamber is different. It has a different shape for better pressure recovery. The ports are also different. They are cleaner (better machined) and have different intake valve angle grinds.

YEAR COMP DISPL. POWER TORQUE CAR
1994-1999 8.5:1 1998cc 241hp@6000rpm 225lb-ft@3400rpm ST205 (Celica)
1997-2002 9.0:1 1998cc 255hp@6200rpm 240lb-ft@4400rpm ST215 (Caldina)

Wiring: Can be done by Primemr2 or wiregapinc (mr220v) or by yourself if you want

Aftermarket downpipe: can be found on Primemr2

I’m not taking credit for anything, I’m simply compiling information instead of all this scattered information all over the web.

REFERENCES: www.mr2oc.com, alltrac.net (pitcelica), ilovemysilly, plachum, wiregapinc, 6gc.net forums, toymods.au, and others who I may not have mentioned that provided some input on threads

If there are corrections to be made or additions, that would be great.

So Basically I can run a higher boost settings on my 3rd gen out of the box ?? so in other words a 3rd gen is better

[trdproven]

Kinda yes since the compression is lower but the caldina engine in its stock form was a refined tune for its setup. The 4th also offers some features that has its benefits such as the side feed, larger tb, better off boost, and cop. If upgraded accordingly the 4th gen is a beast of its own. But both engines pretty darn good. It's a really a choice.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 30, 2016 - 6:42 AM

[enderswift]

I run 20 psi on my 3rd Gen all day long. Some times 22 psi on cool evenings. all it took was a boost controller, and water injection as a safety blanket.

this turns out to be 300 whp at 19.5 psi on the dyno. It's so easy to get power from a 3rd gen...

I don't have first hand experience with a 4th, but I imagine higher comp makes it harder to push boost as high

also, why is everyone always talking about COP like it's the greatest thing ever? OEMS only switched to it to reduce the number of maintaince parts(cap, rotor, etc). There isn't any performance benefit since a standard distributor system can advance and retard ignition timing just as well.

Don't believe me? go hook up a timing light and watch the timing adjust on a distributor car while it idles

[richee3]

Ignition timing is controlled more accurately by COP'S, but not to such an extent that a stock 3S and stock turbo will have any real benefit. But I personally prefer COP's for exactly what you said- fewer parts to maintain.

Once we wander away from 6gc.net, we see that the 4th gen has proven to be just as capable as a 3rd gen. Which begs the question, why argue in favor of one motor or the other? Both are great choices. Both swaps are simple enough. Both give you a 2 liter turbocharged engine that is dead reliable, gives 300 whp all day, and bolts right in. Neither is superior to the other, but they both have slight benefits over each other.

So, why in a thread that is an informative thread about the 4th gen, has a pissing contest started between 3S owners? It's just a matter of personal preference, nothing worth arguing over.

I personally prefer the 4th gen for a few reasons, just the same as many prefer a 3rd gen. For me, the BEAMS has me spoiled. It's self contained (in the sense of just buying the engine/harness/ECU and that I need) so the 4th gen appeals to me for its similarity. Nothing against the 3rd gen, just what I prefer.


*This post is in no way directed at anyone here. Just referring to the inevitable argument about an essentially similar motor.

[trdproven]

Ignition timing is controlled more accurately by COP'S, but not to such an extent that a stock 3S and stock turbo will have any real benefit. But I personally prefer COP's for exactly what you said- fewer parts to maintain.

Once we wander away from 6gc.net, we see that the 4th gen has proven to be just as capable as a 3rd gen. Which begs the question, why argue in favor of one motor or the other? Both are great choices. Both swaps are simple enough. Both give you a 2 liter turbocharged engine that is dead reliable, gives 300 whp all day, and bolts right in. Neither is superior to the other, but they both have slight benefits over each other.

So, why in a thread that is an informative thread about the 4th gen, has a pissing contest started between 3S owners? It's just a matter of personal preference, nothing worth arguing over.

I personally prefer the 4th gen for a few reasons, just the same as many prefer a 3rd gen. For me, the BEAMS has me spoiled. It's self contained (in the sense of just buying the engine/harness/ECU and that I need) so the 4th gen appeals to me for its similarity. Nothing against the 3rd gen, just what I prefer.


*This post is in no way directed at anyone here. Just referring to the inevitable argument about an essentially similar motor.

yea make sense, never started this thread to make it a REAL VS of which is better, more of a VS for comparison of differences or similarities.