V6 swap Celica Options

[SaulGoodman]

Ive been really debating as of lately what I want to do with my ST. The 1.8 liter supposedly can put out solid horsepower with only forged rods and basic tuner upgrades on boost, but Ive been thinking about more torque with NA horsepower. An LS swap would be cool as sh*t but lets face it, too much work in a car not made for it. So a fwd V6 from Toyota is my next best bet, heres some of my choices.

3mz-fe w/ e153 - Best candidate with highest HP/TQ, but people say the motors are no good for boost unless you dump 3k to building the block. Any truth to this?
1mz - Numbers are too low, doesnt seem worth it in comparison to the others. Why or why not?
5vz-fe w/ e153 - Supposedly better for boost? Need confirm on it
2gr/1gr? - No idea how that would work.

I want to keep it FWD. Something "simple enough" to swap in and work day to day.
Which would be the easiest to source junkyard parts (axles, housings, whatever), providing the most reliable performance without sacrificing daily drivability? Ive heard a few people say 1mz/3mz are the easiest to fit in the bay while the 5vz is the most plug-and-play with the wiring. Or should I stick with a boosted 4 cylinder, maybe do something crazy like a K swap? This is all hypothetical, the build wont be for a while so keep it light. Im inexperienced compared to some of the old heads on here, but dang would a V6 Celica be fun. Im 100% in love with this platform, so in my opinion anything is worth the effort on it.

[Box]

Could do a 1MZ/3MZ hybrid, forum member Smaay can tell you all about it. For what it's worth any swap you undertake will be difficult because of it being a ST, except for maybe the 4A-GZE and even that one has its quirks from what I recall. A GT would make a much better base for swapping rather it's 1MZ/3MZ or 3S-GE BEAMS or the 3S-GTE but especially the 3S engines as they're more or less a direct replacement for the 5S, and the S54 transmission can be used on all the above to hold you until getting an E153 and with the BEAMS the S54 would be best anyway I believe. Depending on your uses and needs it's probably best to keep the ST as is for a fun and efficient daily then look into finding a GT for swapping.

[SaulGoodman]

Could do a 1MZ/3MZ hybrid, forum member Smaay can tell you all about it. For what it's worth any swap you undertake will be difficult because of it being a ST, except for maybe the 4A-GZE and even that one has its quirks from what I recall. A GT would make a much better base for swapping rather it's 1MZ/3MZ or 3S-GE BEAMS or the 3S-GTE but especially the 3S engines as they're more or less a direct replacement for the 5S, and the S54 transmission can be used on all the above to hold you until getting an E153 and with the BEAMS the S54 would be best anyway I believe. Depending on your uses and needs it's probably best to keep the ST as is for a fun and efficient daily then look into finding a GT for swapping.

Why would it be any harder? Theyre all just fwd drop in swaps essentially. Not a dramatic amount of custom work aside from the usual wiring and exhaust right? I could always pull parts from my local junkyards if I need anything GT

[Box]

Mounting is different for the A series engine and C series transmission, the wiring is different too. The GT has S series engine mounting and the S series transmission can be reused, the wiring can be reused for the BEAMS and 3S-GTE with mild additions/altercations. The ST has smaller brakes and drums in the rear, so that's a serious consideration when you're doubling power or more. I've been there done that, had a ST and the added complications weren't worth it. It's infinitely better to just start with a GT that already has all the fundamentals in place versus spending the money and doing the work to a ST.

[TimeslideZ]

Coming from a 1MZ, you will need a custom passenger mount, GT4 mounts on the rear and driver side, and then a front GT motor mount. Plus custom Y-pipe too. If you go the 3MZ, you'll also be dealing with a lot more electronics (like drive by wire vs 1MZ throttle cable).

Like Casey said, Smaay w/ his hybrid swap is a good one to look into. That way you get the 3.3L but don't need to worry about 3MZ electronics when you're running the 1MZ electronics. It'll be lot more work than getting the S54 and GT mounts to swap a 3SGTE; but you'll have the "ease of junkyard parts" since those motors are much more common.

Here's some more info on the 3SGTE swap (it also includes the other swaps too): http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28825

If you somehow don't go for the "simple enough" you can look into njccmd2002's build thread, who's car currently houses a 2GR in it: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=93871

There's a guy up here in MN that I know and he's got a K24 in his Celica (he's pushing like 450hp)! He's running the adapter plate from HUX RACING for the K20/K24 to the E153. He's running custom mounts; BUT not on all of them (I think). I can say he's gone through a couple outer axles using the hybrid setup (3/year)

If you go the e153, be prepared for the hybrid axle setup (MR2 inner, ST185 ALLTRAC outer, possible spacer on passenger side). A bit of a headache to read but: http://www.6gc.net/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t80587.html



This post has been edited by TimeslideZ: Aug 20, 2019 - 11:34 PM

[cheela]

go 2gr. we need more 2gr fans. it's a beast.

[BonzaiCelica]

swap in a 2mzfe. 2.5 liter v6 and get aftermarket ecu with s54 transmission. 7,000 rpm v6 yay

[SaulGoodman]

Coming from a 1MZ, you will need a custom passenger mount, GT4 mounts on the rear and driver side, and then a front GT motor mount. Plus custom Y-pipe too. If you go the 3MZ, you'll also be dealing with a lot more electronics (like drive by wire vs 1MZ throttle cable).

Like Casey said, Smaay w/ his hybrid swap is a good one to look into. That way you get the 3.3L but don't need to worry about 3MZ electronics when you're running the 1MZ electronics. It'll be lot more work than getting the S54 and GT mounts to swap a 3SGTE; but you'll have the "ease of junkyard parts" since those motors are much more common.

Here's some more info on the 3SGTE swap (it also includes the other swaps too): http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28825

If you somehow don't go for the "simple enough" you can look into njccmd2002's build thread, who's car currently houses a 2GR in it: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=93871

There's a guy up here in MN that I know and he's got a K24 in his Celica (he's pushing like 450hp)! He's running the adapter plate from HUX RACING for the K20/K24 to the E153. He's running custom mounts; BUT not on all of them (I think). I can say he's gone through a couple outer axles using the hybrid setup (3/year)

If you go the e153, be prepared for the hybrid axle setup (MR2 inner, ST185 ALLTRAC outer, possible spacer on passenger side). A bit of a headache to read but: http://www.6gc.net/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t80587.html

My problem with the 3sgte is the turbo aspect. I live in Florida where the heat is killer. I expect to use this car as a daily once its done so I need reliability (Thinking of buying a mk3 Supra in the meantime ). Plus a 2gr is 6 cylinders yet still lighter than my 7afe while still putting 280 to the wheels. How did you go about doing the custom mount? My biggest worry with this is having to learn to weld. Also what did you do for headers? I know Y pipe back will have to be custom but the cost of custom headers make my tummy hurt

[TimeslideZ]

My problem with the 3sgte is the turbo aspect. I live in Florida where the heat is killer. I expect to use this car as a daily once its done so I need reliability (Thinking of buying a mk3 Supra in the meantime ). Plus a 2gr is 6 cylinders yet still lighter than my 7afe while still putting 280 to the wheels. How did you go about doing the custom mount? My biggest worry with this is having to learn to weld. Also what did you do for headers? I know Y pipe back will have to be custom but the cost of custom headers make my tummy hurt

Lol I wish I can tell you but I bought the car already w/ the swap. But the previous owner (snapshotgt) had the swap done at SpeedSource in Chicago back in 2008. There was a link that showed the making of the mount but it's a broken link now. All I can say is it's all poly (at least no rubber). Beefy; but you'll get more vibration b/c of so. The old build thread: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=53507. The headers remained the oem 1mz. IIRC aftermarket headers aren't too useful unless you go F/I or S/C.

But, if you want to go 2gr ncj's thread shows how he did his custom mount for the passenger side.

This post has been edited by TimeslideZ: Sep 10, 2019 - 12:28 PM

[Box]

The 7A is actually lighter, it's a fair bit lighter than the 5S-FE which is more on par with all aluminum V6 engines. It's like everyone thinks the Miata 1.6-1.8 are anchors because they're iron block but they're not, fully dressed is like 320 pounds and I'd suspect around the same for the 7A since it's a smaller block like they are, versus iron block I4 engines like the 2.2 5S-FE and 2.4 KA24DE that're 400 pounds. Then if you go with an E153 that's even more weight over the C56 than the S54 might be. I could find the exact number if I felt like digging for it, but there is a good 100+ pounds that the GT has over the ST and the only difference is in the drivetrain and brakes and the GT 15" alloys weigh less than the ST 14" steels.

It sounds like your ambitions are bigger than your capabilities if you're worried about having to learn to weld or shell out for custom headers, that's the least of your worries with any of the V6 swaps much less the 2GR. It may seem like I'm trying to deter you, and to a degree I am, since I don't want yet another person to jump head first into one of these swaps thinking it'll be something easy and cheap they can do in a weekend. You'd be far better off leaving the ST as is and getting a GT for swapping, project cars and daily drivers don't go hand in hand.

That or if you're set on a V6 there are plenty of good cars that come with them already, like the 350Z and Accord Coupe.

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 10, 2019 - 7:02 PM

[SaulGoodman]

The 7A is actually lighter, it's a fair bit lighter than the 5S-FE which is more on par with all aluminum V6 engines. It's like everyone thinks the Miata 1.6-1.8 are anchors because they're iron block but they're not, fully dressed is like 320 pounds and I'd suspect around the same for the 7A since it's a smaller block like they are, versus iron block I4 engines like the 2.2 5S-FE and 2.4 KA24DE that're 400 pounds. Then if you go with an E153 that's even more weight over the C56 than the S54 might be. I could find the exact number if I felt like digging for it, but there is a good 100+ pounds that the GT has over the ST and the only difference is in the drivetrain and brakes and the GT 15" alloys weigh less than the ST 14" steels.

It sounds like your ambitions are bigger than your capabilities if you're worried about having to learn to weld or shell out for custom headers, that's the least of your worries with any of the V6 swaps much less the 2GR. It may seem like I'm trying to deter you, and to a degree I am, since I don't want yet another person to jump head first into one of these swaps thinking it'll be something easy and cheap they can do in a weekend. You'd be far better off leaving the ST as is and getting a GT for swapping, project cars and daily drivers don't go hand in hand.

That or if you're set on a V6 there are plenty of good cars that come with them already, like the 350Z and Accord Coupe.

Thats whimp talk, we are real men out here, with big engines and small weenies.

On the real I just dont want to blow 15k on the swap because of custom fab. The entire purpose of the build was to see what crazy thing I can do with it next, so Im pretty set on getting a V6 into my Celi. I realize its gonna be alot but Ive already done some pretty ambitious projects with it, including painting with it a roller. I can source a 2gr fully outfitted for about 600, another 400 or so for the E153 transmission. The sourced build would be around 1500 (axles, mounts, etc; not including the GT4 pieces) from my local LKQ U-Pull-It, anything more is additional. Wiring harness is probably another 500. Custom engine mounts would be 200 or so each? So at the end of this the project will be around 3-4k by my estimates. Of course realistically itll be 5-6, but even still, 2-8-0 WHEEL na horsepower would be insane. To make that kind of power from a 7afe would take way more and be unreliable, 3sgte would be around the same price but I stated why I shouldnt above. A V6 just seems logical, a 2gr seems right

[SaulGoodman]

Mounting is different for the A series engine and C series transmission, the wiring is different too. The GT has S series engine mounting and the S series transmission can be reused, the wiring can be reused for the BEAMS and 3S-GTE with mild additions/altercations. The ST has smaller brakes and drums in the rear, so that's a serious consideration when you're doubling power or more. I've been there done that, had a ST and the added complications weren't worth it. It's infinitely better to just start with a GT that already has all the fundamentals in place versus spending the money and doing the work to a ST.

Brakes are ez, I can find a rear disk GT pair for under 200. Howd you do the tranny mounts for the ST?

[Box]

I don't think you fully comprehend the daunting task that's the 2GR into a Celica, if you've not read njccmd's thread front to back you need to because you're at half at what it cost him with that number: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=93458

The "easy V6" is the 1MZ, and the only ones I know of working are SnapshotGT's now owned by TimeslideZ and then Smaay's 1MZ/3MZ hybrid, all others got it into the car and "running" but never really drove it. So... yeah... It took a lot for njccmd to get the 2GR to work out, it's all in that thread, and as far as I know his is the ONLY ONE documented. It's easy to talk about doing these swaps, or even think you know what to do from reading things on the internet, but reality is much harsher than that.

Also I wouldn't suggest a MKIII Supra either, it's old and the 7M is limited and has its share of problems. If you want a "Supra on a budget" then get a SC300/400 as they're newer and more viable, and the MKIV Supra was based on them so all the MKIV Supra aftermarket parts works on them. You can find a '98-00 SC400 and do a W58 manual conversion and have a very nice car with 300 horsepower, and it's step-by-step documented and even comes in DIY kits. Or if you don't want the V8 there's always the SC300 that's stupid easy to swap the 2JZ-GE for the 2JZ-GTE, and they came with manuals as an option(albeit a scant 3,800 of them).

You say you need a reliable daily with A/C and don't want to spend too much on the swap, and it seems like most aspects of a custom swap are new to you. Hence my suggestions, you'd be far better off just getting a car that comes from the factory the way you want it. Even if you were ace at custom swaps and got everything at the best prices possible, you'd be hard pressed to break even over a comparable car that came that way from the factory. There's a reason why most of us here have moved on from our Celicas, or those that still have them have them as a project car.

[SaulGoodman]

I don't think you fully comprehend the daunting task that's the 2GR into a Celica, if you've not read njccmd's thread front to back you need to because you're at half at what it cost him with that number: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=93458

The "easy V6" is the 1MZ, and the only ones I know of working are SnapshotGT's now owned by TimeslideZ and then Smaay's 1MZ/3MZ hybrid, all others got it into the car and "running" but never really drove it. So... yeah... It took a lot for njccmd to get the 2GR to work out, it's all in that thread, and as far as I know his is the ONLY ONE documented. It's easy to talk about doing these swaps, or even think you know what to do from reading things on the internet, but reality is much harsher than that.

Also I wouldn't suggest a MKIII Supra either, it's old and the 7M is limited and has its share of problems. If you want a "Supra on a budget" then get a SC300/400 as they're newer and more viable, and the MKIV Supra was based on them so all the MKIV Supra aftermarket parts works on them. You can find a '98-00 SC400 and do a W58 manual conversion and have a very nice car with 300 horsepower, and it's step-by-step documented and even comes in DIY kits. Or if you don't want the V8 there's always the SC300 that's stupid easy to swap the 2JZ-GE for the 2JZ-GTE, and they came with manuals as an option(albeit a scant 3,800 of them).

You say you need a reliable daily with A/C and don't want to spend too much on the swap, and it seems like most aspects of a custom swap are new to you. Hence my suggestions, you'd be far better off just getting a car that comes from the factory the way you want it. Even if you were ace at custom swaps and got everything at the best prices possible, you'd be hard pressed to break even over a comparable car that came that way from the factory. There's a reason why most of us here have moved on from our Celicas, or those that still have them have them as a project car.

And that last line speaks for itself. YES i realize how difficult its gonna be, Ive helped my buddy swap a 3mz into his TC, theres even more of a following with v6 swaps on the forums than 6gc and it was hard enough as is. I told you, Im dead set on getting a v6 into my Celica. If I want to blow triple my budget and rip out my hair then I will, and if I end up selling it Im 100% just buying another Celica. Plus Supras are a dime a dozen here, easily available repairs compared to Celi. Youre on a Celica forum though, post how to swap a v6, not how to buy another car.

[SaulGoodman]

I really want to know how he got 8k out of it though. Alot of people are saying the engine costs 1500-2k standalone, no tranny or ECU.

[Tigawoods]

what is happening here, there is some guy calling himself Casey and then some other guys saying V6 swaps are easy. Cost is one thing, doing the work is a whole different task

[Box]

I just did, I gave you the link to the ONLY documented 2GR swap into a Celica. That's all the info out there, and even it's not complete since he didn't put everything he did into that post. If you read through the post you'll see how and why it ended up costing as much as it did. So long as you know what you're getting into that's fine, but I'm tired of seeing people mislead by others saying "X and Y is a breeze, anyone can do it" then they end up in a hole with a non functioning car and a lot of lost funds. So sorry, I'm more adamant than others might be in that regard. I'm all for more interest in the 6th gen Celica, and definitely more V6 swapped ones. I'm not into people ending up with bad experiences. If you want to do a V6 the 1MZ/3MZ is the "easy way", all the info is here between Smaay, SnapshotGT, and kurt95gt as well as others I'm probably forgetting about. That and you said you did the MZ V6 into a tC, so it shouldn't be an issue for you in conjunction with all the info here.

I don't see any guys named Casey here. *shrugs and flips hair* There is a girl named Casey though as it's my birth name, Box is my maiden name I rather not be burdened with hence the signature(since apparently this forum is still in the stone ages and usernames are set in said stone).

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 11, 2019 - 9:08 PM

[Box]

Here are all the 1MZ swap info threads I can recall at the moment:
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=53507
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=82235&hl
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=91482&hl
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=82573&hl
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=95155&hl

This post has been edited by Box: Sep 11, 2019 - 9:28 PM

[SaulGoodman]

Okay so in that case, let this be the cumalitive record of a 2gr into an ST. What Im hearing is for the 2gr Ill need:

2gr-fe out of Camry/ES 350/Avalon etc. Newer 2gr's supposedly have better VVT-I along with a water-to-oil cooler
ECU from ? Ive read a few places that some 2gr models have immobilizers, Ill have to look into it more
E153 transmission from Solara
Custom harness
Axles - Most go GT outers and ST185 inners with spacers for mz (or other way around). What would work?
Drive by wire pedal assembly
Custom engine mounts
Custom headers

What else? Ill update the list more as I research. Ill hop around the forums and scout more info. Maybe the MR2 guys could shed some light

[SaulGoodman]

Oh and uh...sorry bout the men joke. I didnt realize you were a female