 Looking for advice on performance, Swap, hybrid, rebuild? |
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 Sep 25, 2004 - 11:16 PM
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 Enthusiast  Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%)  |
I've already made my cosmetic and suspension plans for my Celica that will come in the future, but now I have to think about what is going to be under the hood. Sometimes it only frustrates me to think about it so I figured I would get some ideas and opinions.
OK, so far I've pretty much ruled out a 7a-fte project. It just doesn't seem like it will pay off in the long run. The minimum goal I'm wanting to achieve is 250 whp, and 250 lb-ft. of torque. How I get that... I really don't care. The problem I'm having is that I don't know where to start. I want something that is going to completely blow people's minds when they see it. I know that getting something like that requires custom work - and I'm not talking about the homemade kind (unless you're someone that knows how to do it). I don't know anyone at all that can make custom headers, mounts, intakes, piping, etc. I know that probably the most fun project would be a 7a-gte. I'm really impressed by frotou's project. After seeing all the custom work he's had done, I doubt I would ever be able to pull something like that off. I guess the only other option I have would to be a 4a-gze or 3s-gte swap. After seeing all the trouble that John went through with his 4a-gze, I'm kinda iffy about that as well. I know that the 3s-gte would give me trouble since I have an ST. I haven't done that much research about it. I don't know which generation of the 3s-gte is better, or if it's more common to find a USDM 3s-gte for the swap or a JDM 3s-gte. Sitting around and thinking about all this just makes me want to turn the Celica into a beater and save up for an EVO. But despite that, all my friends say I should keep the Celica and fix it up beyond belief. I guess that's the path I'll go unless a swap or hybrid project drives me insane. I am by no means a car expert, and I wouldn't even touch my engine in any way other than to change the oil, spark plugs, belts, or any other job that a monkey with a wrench could do successfully. I'm all about tearing it apart to learn about it, but I wouldn't consider putting anything together on my car without some supervision (I think I got lucky when I successfully replaced my front axles). I dunno, maybe I know more about cars than I think, but I'm still nervous to do anything big. Alright, I started rambling. So give me your ideas, opinions, criticism or anything else you can come up with. |
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Sep 25, 2004 - 11:33 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
250 whp is a VERY ambitious goal. The 4AGZE cannot do that, and I don't think even a 7AGTE can do that without a fair amount of building in the bottom end. Consider this... XXX_mina I think has the highest whp amougst active 6th gen Celica community members. He *had* around 290 whp BUT his engine started having problems so he de-tuned down to his current which is around 230-240 whp if I remember correctly. That's near MAX for a stock 3SGTE swap... and no other toyota 4 cyclinder is gonna see that without a lot of work, time, and money. If you're not confident enough to work on a project like this yourself, then I'd suggest you re-assess your goals because the money involved is pretty high...
-------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 25, 2004 - 11:48 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
I guess I'll just get a new car then. No potential, no point.
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Sep 25, 2004 - 11:55 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
It's not a matter of potential... it's a matter of realistic goals and money. Are you trying to build a pure race car or are you build a fun street car? 250whp turbo FF is not exactly either or. Yes it would be fun, yes it would be fast... but why? Being a FF layout, it's not gonna be the best drag car... and being a high-boost FF turbo car, it's not gonna be the best track car because of the shifty powerband. As for street... well... street combines both of the above, only at lower speeds. It's all about tastes... If you have the money to do it... go for it. The Celica is a great platform to build off of. If you don't have the money and/or cannot afford the down time... then you gotta re-consider the words "project car" and "daily driver"... Sometimes you just can't do both. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 26, 2004 - 3:25 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
I just want to take full advantage of the Celica's handling. They're great autocross cars. But I also want to be able to destroy Honda Civic ricers cause they deserve that much
 When my car was bone stock except for the 18" wheels I had, I raced a guy with a newer model Civic that had CAI, header, exhaust, ignition, and plug wires (only mods I saw) and stayed right beside him the entire time. He also had 3 passengers, so I'm sure that gave him a weight disadvantage. So, at least I know that it won't take much for me to blow a Civic away.In truth, I'm just wanting to get the Celica to a point where I think it's fun to drive. Don't get me wrong, it's fun right now, but I think it would be much better if it had a little more pep in the horsepower department. |
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Sep 27, 2004 - 4:43 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 30, '04 From cali Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
How about this. swap your 7afe into a
new/low-mielage 5sfe internal upgrades (piston, rods, etc) head p/p ripps modd supercharge custom header tune the car.. good for at least 200-230 hp get pulley, crank blah blah blah.. very possible This post has been edited by celicasupra209: Sep 27, 2004 - 4:43 PM -------------------- RIP-1995 Toyota Celica GT
Riding a 2002 Honda Civic HB Si |
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Sep 28, 2004 - 11:35 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 28, '04 From California Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
For starters, the 4agze will and can get to 250+ to the wheels, just not with the stock supercharger. I have a twinscrew kit available for the 4agze but that is another story. Secondly, if you really want 250 to the wheels then it can be done quite easily with the 3rd gen 3sgte out of a Celica St205. You can get 250 at the wheels with downpipe and boost controller reliably from this engine and that dear sir is a fact. You also have 7agze or 7agte as well. So many options for you Celica owners it is quite rediculous.
Ron (909) 283-3778 Motors Unlimited |
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Sep 29, 2004 - 12:22 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
That all comes with building the motors. Like I said, it's not a matter of potential... it's a matter of money. You, being a business man, know exactly what I mean... cause people without hook-ups come to you... correct? -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 29, 2004 - 1:59 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 28, '04 From California Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
No sir, I am not talking about building the motor as I do not believe in opening up a motor to improve on what Toyota has already done. Especially when we are discussing A series and S series engines. I am talking about bolt on performance to get to 250whp.
Ron (909) 283-3778 Motors Unlimited |
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Sep 29, 2004 - 4:41 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Well in that case, i'll again disagree. I have yet to see stock 4AGZ internals take enough boost to make 250whp reliably. Sure people run turbo set-ups off of the 4AGZ block, and boost up to hit 250 whp to run a few at the dragstrip or something, but 250whp out of the 4AGZE (turbo or upgraded supercharger), is gonna take more work than bolting stuff up. I doubt the stock rods/pistons can take more than 15 psi reliably with an effieicent charge... assuming you can supply enougn fuel and tune it all up... As for the S series, the stock bottom-ends have proven to hold up to 15psi fairly well so long as fuel is good. 15psi on a well tuned 3SGTE makes well over 250 whp... but 15 psi on a well tuned 4AG/T/Z barely breaks 210 whp with an efficient turbo/supercharger... at least I've yet to see a 4AGZ be boosted up to 250whp on stock internals... This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Sep 29, 2004 - 4:41 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 29, 2004 - 4:44 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 30, '04 From cali Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
well you said money right? a good 5sfe engine runs roughly 400-1000 on get an s/c from rippsmod aonther 35000 roughly. totall roughly 5000.00 a swap for any other motor (3sgte, 4gze, etc...) But the good thing about this is being Unique you will be the first  wait i forogot need the gt-4 hood to fit the sc -------------------- RIP-1995 Toyota Celica GT
Riding a 2002 Honda Civic HB Si |
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Sep 29, 2004 - 4:52 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%) |
you don't need the gt-4 hood for the S/c i don't think but none the less you will need to figure out a hood arrangement
imo go get longer bolts and some metal spacers and just lift the back of the hood up, i have this on mine nifty look and helps take out the hot air and give you a little more clearance |
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Sep 30, 2004 - 9:16 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined May 18, '04 From Charlotte, NC Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
i know edo17982 is rebuilding the 7a internals (here) now and is supose to be getting about 160whp. And u would be able to throw a nice ass boost on that, you could prolly easily achive the goals you want.
This post has been edited by psyko: Sep 30, 2004 - 9:17 AM |
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Sep 30, 2004 - 1:43 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Sep 28, '04 From California Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Excellent point Kwanza26, as I am really getting to like this message board. Unfortuneately, you are now on a subject "4agze" that I personally specialize in. First off the bottom end of the 4agze late model is so robust that it is just over kill. Problem with alot of 4agze owners is that they add power but do not tune it properly, and they are early model 4agze owners. Properly tuned the 4agze can handle 250 to the wheels reliably with no problems at all. I am currently running 210 to the wheels at 17 pounds of boost from my twinscrew supercharger and Link engine management. Many people are running 225+ at the wheels with no problems at all, untuned! Forged pistons, rods as big as crower, oil squirters under the pistons, forged crank, 365cc injectors, and 7 rib block. Believe me when I tell you folks, the late model 4agze is quite robust, but must be tuned properly. I am sure the early model 4agze can handle the power output as well, but the bottom end of the late model 4agze is really what you want to build your powerhouse around. On the other hand, 250whp from a 3sgte would be more easy to attain and tuning is not as big of an issue. I speak from personal experience as well as the many Toyota owners I have dealt with over the years to bring facts to this message board and not speculation. Great Forum! Ron (909) 283-3778 Motors Unlimited |
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Sep 30, 2004 - 1:45 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Yeah... I read up on his work... but I highly doubt he's gonna make 160whp n/a. I just don't think the 7AFE head can make that power while keeping the engine streetable. His engine will rev fast and will have excellent response, but as far as numbers are concerned... I don't see much without a very agressive cam profile and some very good tuning. The best I was able to pull out on the 7AFE head with stock camshafts was ~140 whp... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Sep 30, 2004 - 1:52 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Feb 10, '03 From Connecticut Currently Offline Reputation: 11 (100%) |
He wants 160 wheel hp? thats optimistic on a 7a, but then again 140whp on the 7a is pretty high, whats that 160-165hp, impressive.
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Sep 30, 2004 - 2:06 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
No doubt the the late model 4AGZE's were built very well... IMO, better than even the 3SGTE in many ways, but my point overall is, tuning tuning tuning. 90% of the people who look to "bolt-on" modifications are not people who tune their cars. I'm sure you get what I mean when I say that... but like I said above... it's a matter of an efficient blower and tuning. 250 would be pushing the 4AGZ block to its very limits... I've torn apart these blocks, and true enough, they're very well built... but still, 250whp out of a 1.6 liter requires quite a bit of boost. So much boost that I'll get uncomfortable with making tuning mistakes. And yeah... excellent forum... =D I'm glad you're here too... good info being passed and I might be looking into an engine soon... ;] -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Oct 1, 2004 - 7:31 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Oct 16, '02 From Hohenwald, Tennessee Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) |
Well now that the matter of tuning the 7A came up - does anyone think it would be possible to get 200whp out of it reliably?
Another question - can the 7A tranny stand up to that sort of power. I'm sure new axles would come into play, seeing as how I've read that the factory ones can't hold very much horsepower over what the 7A already has. I came to the conclusion that I was going to do a head conversion to get a 7A-GTE, but if it's possible to get at least 200whp out of it without a head swap I could reconsider. |
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Oct 1, 2004 - 8:15 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jul 7, '04 From charlotte N.C. Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
ive seen a dyno sheet of a 7a-fte makign 160whp at i think 8 psi. but i know nothing else of tuning or anything else. its zipstrips you should send him a pm if your curious
i think that the 7afe can make 200whp but not on stock internals. This post has been edited by recneps: Oct 1, 2004 - 8:27 AM -------------------- Former: 96 GT 5 speed (i/p/e) Fate- rear ended by mack truck
00 GTS 6 speed (i/ Bored TB 63mm - 68.5mm w/ butterfly/ Ported IM/ IMG/ PFC/ Commander/ datalogit/ Ported & heat wrapped Header/ Decat/ UEGO/) 193FWHP 14.2(1/4mi) @98mph, 2.12 60ft (just intake, unbolted Exhaust, and gutted) Fate- side swipped by 18 wheeler at 75mph. Next: maybe an elise |
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Oct 1, 2004 - 8:27 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jul 7, '04 From charlotte N.C. Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
-------------------- Former: 96 GT 5 speed (i/p/e) Fate- rear ended by mack truck
00 GTS 6 speed (i/ Bored TB 63mm - 68.5mm w/ butterfly/ Ported IM/ IMG/ PFC/ Commander/ datalogit/ Ported & heat wrapped Header/ Decat/ UEGO/) 193FWHP 14.2(1/4mi) @98mph, 2.12 60ft (just intake, unbolted Exhaust, and gutted) Fate- side swipped by 18 wheeler at 75mph. Next: maybe an elise |
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