Adjusting the ignition timing...., WTF? I turned the distributor all the way and its still only 5degrees Options

[king_wsk]

Today me and my friend (who drives a 92 celica GT) went to advance our timing to try and squeeze a few extra hp out of them. His timing was at 12 degrees (cause he already tried to advance it by just moving it without a timing gun) so we moved it to 14 degree with no problem. The stock setting is 10 degrees and with 91 octane fuel, 14 runs well with no pinging.

Now when we went to first check my timing.... I found it was at 0 degrees!!!!! I didn't believe it at first so I tried turning the distributor back down to -5 degrees and then advanced it as far as it would go... only 5 degrees!!!! My car only has 89 octane in it and after advancing it a bit, the engine seemed to run quieter and smoother. I did notice that more torque at 4300rpm (which usually comes at 4700rpm).

How do you get the timing to at least 10 degrees? I've heard that you can remove the distributor and then install it at an angle and then turn it to the mounting position, that should change the range of adjustment from -5 to 5 degrees, to 5 degrees to 15 degrees.

Any one ever seen this before?

Also.... What kind of gas milage do you guys see? I'm currently running at about 19mpg street and 22 highway..... i think thats kind of low.....Maybe because I'm running at 0 degree.... 10 degrees retarted!

This post has been edited by king_wsk: Jan 9, 2007 - 1:55 AM

[LewFX]

or maybe you drive too aggressive!!!

[king_wsk]

or maybe you drive too aggressive!!!

No, not since my $405 speeding ticket.... I've been driving it like a baby.... and my mpg went from 17 to 19...... and from 20 to 22.... but still.........=\

[Bitter]

this is odd. are you sure the timing gun is set up right (if its not the most basic model)? on plug wire #1? is the timing mark on the crank pulley easy to make out? i need to put white paint on mine to make it easier to see, on my 7afe 15 deg timing made a big difference.

your distributor has 2 hold down bolts, you've loosened both right?

[king_wsk]

Yes. Like I said, i'm sure I did everything right. My friend has a 92 celica GT... same damn 5sfe engine... I tired moving the inductor pickup to all 4 plug wires... same reading off by + or - 1 degree. And that 2nd bolt behind is a btich to get, but yes I did get it...

This post has been edited by king_wsk: Jan 9, 2007 - 2:37 AM

[bufferdan]

Timing belt was probably installed wrong when it was done

[Batman722]

did you bridge the connection in the diagnostic box before checking the timing ?

[Rayme]

did you bridge the connection in the diagnostic box before checking the timing ?

ditto, the computer change advance and backup the timing for some reasons.

[Bitter]

E1 and TE1, jump them with a paperclip. jeeze, i sort of assumed you had already did this. if thats the case and it was jumped AND you were still only getting this small of a change then you have something wrong wrong wrong.

[king_wsk]

E1 and TE1, jump them with a paperclip. jeeze, i sort of assumed you had already did this. if thats the case and it was jumped AND you were still only getting this small of a change then you have something wrong wrong wrong.

Guys! Guys! Guys!!!! I did use a paper clip on TE1 and E1..... This is exactly what I followed:


http://www.toyotacelicaonline.com/timing.htm

I also referenced my Cliton's Manual which also had the same info (with some diagrams).


And like I said before, I tried this exact method on my friends car first and got the correct results. We have the same engine... 5sfe (his 92 celica GT).

Timing belt was probably installed wrong when it was done

So how would I remedy this? And how could it be installed so far off?

[Bitter]

it is possible that your timing belt is a tooth off, then the time at which spark fires would also be wrong (and your valves wont open at the right time either) which would drop your fuel milage, drop power, cause a rough idle, etc.

check that the crank and cam timing marks align properly.

[WannabeGT4]

I don't know for sure but I'm still going to throw the idea out there. The Cali spec Celica has a different ECU and distributor which may be similar to the OBDII cars which can not advance their timing.

[Bitter]

that may be true, however he should still have more than 5deg of advance at idle with TE1 and E1 jumped. it should be right around 10deg. also he says he has 2 bolts which is the adjustable type, allows for the whole assembly to be rotated.

[presure2]

I don't know for sure but I'm still going to throw the idea out there. The Cali spec Celica has a different ECU and distributor which may be similar to the OBDII cars which can not advance their timing.

nope, the 94-95 cali spec is still adjustable @ the distributor.

[king_wsk]

This car actually isn't from CA... I bought it from a girl who just moved from New Jersey...it didn't even have a front license plate mount. I was able to gain the 5 degrees from rotating the distributor, so I'm sure thats how its done.

If my timing belt is a tooth off, then I would notice some serious idle issues... which I don't. even with the TE1 and E1 jumped, it idles smoothly at around 550-600 rpm. Normal idle is around 725rpm and is very smooth. I'll take your advice Bitter and check the alignment of the other marks on the cam and crank when I get a chance.

I still haven't had a change to take off the distributor and look at it (due to heavy work schedule), but I'll do it tommorrow hopefully, unless you guys think that's a waste of my time and I should look at reseating the timing belt. The belt was changed 25k ago and still looks like its in great condition.

This post has been edited by king_wsk: Jan 9, 2007 - 6:13 PM

[WannabeGT4]

Since the 5SFE is a slave style DOHC the exhaust cam is driven by the intake cam via a gear on the inside of the valve cover meaning that if the timing belt was off one tooth both the intake and exhaust would be retarded the same amount making any idle problems virtually non-existent. A lack of power and gas mileage would pretty much be your only symptoms.

[king_wsk]

First, I'd like to thank you guys for your input. After fulling removing the distributor and reattaching it, I was able to get the timing to the full 15 degrees. I've found that this runs fine with 91 octane. I found the best way to test it is to get going about 10 mph and then pop it in 5th and floor it... totally stressing the engine. If you hear any chattering, then you've advanced it too much or need higher octane. I haven't even burned a full tank yet, but from what I can see so far, I'm about 3-4mpg more plus I notice some seroius low end torque improvements. I was indeed running retarted at 0 degrees.

Thanks again everyone!

[Bitter]

glad you got it fixed!

[Rayme]

First, I'd like to thank you guys for your input. After fulling removing the distributor and reattaching it, I was able to get the timing to the full 15 degrees. I've found that this runs fine with 91 octane. I found the best way to test it is to get going about 10 mph and then pop it in 5th and floor it... totally stressing the engine. If you hear any chattering, then you've advanced it too much or need higher octane. I haven't even burned a full tank yet, but from what I can see so far, I'm about 3-4mpg more plus I notice some seroius low end torque improvements. I was indeed running retarted at 0 degrees.

Thanks again everyone!

I'm going to make your statement more valid, by saying I did the same with my 90 GT-S celica. I advanded the timing to 14 and still only used 87 octane, I did over 50 000 KM like that so I can say it seems a pretty safe mod to do.

The extra power from the engine is signification in the lower end of the rpm band, I don’t know if I lost or gained anything in the upper end but its been said it usually is a gain everywhere. The gas mileage should improve too, as you’re gaining more power without using more fuel (in theory...)!

I still have to do it on my 6th gen though...

This post has been edited by Rayme: Jan 12, 2007 - 12:54 PM