Burning Oil, from where? Options

[alltracman78]

His explanation was: The hotter/longer duration oil temps cause the water in the oil to burn off therefore lowering the volume of oil.

That's correct if your level drops suddenly after driving after your first long trip in a while, but continuous long trips like she does don't cause that. Water doesn't have enough time to build up in the oil.

[Relatively] high RPM driving causes higher oil consumption because more oil is thrown off the rod bearings up onto the cylinder walls, and the oil control rings have a harder time getting rid of all of it.
A worn engine makes this even worse.

[hurley97]

ok so I understand some basics but I don't know too much in detail about valve seals. can someone explain them to me... some pictures and/or some details on how to change them would be nice too, even a link to somewhere with that info... thanks

[alltracman78]

In aluminum head engines there is a metal guide the valve slides up and down in.
Valve seals sit on the top of this guide and seal the space between the valve shaft and the valve guide.
In your engine [and most Toyota engines] you have to remove the camshafts to do anything with the valves.
So the top of the timing belt has to come off.

This isn't a really good pic, and it's of my engine, not a 7A, but...
Go to post #15.
The 5th pic down is of my head dissasembled.
You can see the tops of the valve guides all in a row. The metal "tubes" in the holes in the head.
The type of valve seals Toyota uses now are pushed onto the top of the guides.
You can see a small pile of seals [there's 5 of them] right above the head sitting on the towel between the ziplock bags.

That's the bests I can do right now.
I don't have any better pics ATM.

Does it make any sense at all?


*
Forgot to add the link
http://www.celicatech.com/forums/showthrea...ghlight=rebuild
*

[hurley97]

ok. so lets make sure I understand this right... when you take the cam shafts off you have this...




so you actually have to take the valves and springs out to get to the guides, yes ?




which means I need this thing for the springs, if not to take them out I need it to get them back in, correct ?




all that to change those stupid little plastic things, right ? what else should I change while I'm in there, would changing the springs and/or guides themselves have any benefit to my problem at all?

I was kind of hoping this could be a job me and Dustin could figure out ourselves (in case Manny doesn't have time to waste on a 7A lol) but I guess not since there's a few tools we need and don't have
but thanks for explaining all this to me, I want to understand it regardless... maybe we can figure out a way around the tool problem and do it anyway

[jason]

new head is like 200-220 from a company called alabama heads i think, NEW valves, guides, seals everything, haven't put one on my car yet, but stuck one on a friends around here n he barely uses any oil, i use maybe a quart every 500-700 miles about, but under heavy acceleration in the morning off a startup it puffs some out the back, if you want me to get some specifics about a whole new head lemme know, or since you work for a parts store (right?) someone there should be able to get you a hook up if nothing else

[alltracman78]

I'll try to remember to answer this tonite.
I'm on lunch and don't want to type a long answer at the moment.

[alltracman78]

I'll add an explanation later tonite, or if I get too tore up, tomorrow.

[alltracman78]

ok. so lets make sure I understand this right... when you take the cam shafts off you have this...

Yes.
You will have to remove the lifters and shims. They just lift out. It's easiest with a magnetic retriever.
Make SURE to keep them in the EXACT order. I can't stress this enough. This way you shouldn't have to reshim the head. You want to put the lifters and shims in the exact same place they came from.

so you actually have to take the valves and springs out to get to the guides, yes ?

Just the springs/retainers. You have to take the head off to remove the valves.

which means I need this thing for the springs, if not to take them out I need it to get them back in, correct ?

That or one similar. To take them out and reinstall.
It's a valve spring compressor.
There are a few different types.
Some you can't use, either because of the design of your head, or the fact it will still be on the engine.
I actually talked with Manny about doing this on his cousins MR2, but he ended up getting a different engine.
Whatever. He was looking at a different type of tool. I've never used it. You might want to PM him for a link. I'm sure he'd remember. If not, I'll jog his memory.
If you do this, buy a few [4?] extra retainer locks. They like to go flying.

all that to change those stupid little plastic things, right ? what else should I change while I'm in there, would changing the springs and/or guides themselves have any benefit to my problem at all?

I was kind of hoping this could be a job me and Dustin could figure out ourselves (in case Manny doesn't have time to waste on a 7A lol) but I guess not since there's a few tools we need and don't have
but thanks for explaining all this to me, I want to understand it regardless... maybe we can figure out a way around the tool problem and do it anyway

Unfortunately, yes.
There is no point in changing the springs. Toyota springs almost never go bad.
Changing the guides will help [if they are worn] but you have to remove the head to do it.
You can probably rent the tool from Autocrap for free. You just have to make sure it's one you can use in your specific situation. Or buy the one Manny was interested in. It was ~ $100 IIRC.

One other thing you need.
Compressed air and a fitting for the spark plug threads.
This will keep the valves from falling into the chamber.
You also want to make sure to keep the piston on the cyl you are working on at TDC. This way if they do fall, they won't fall all the way in....

This is a blurry pic of the spring/retainer.
All this has to be removed by a valve spring compressor to access the seal.


This is what a valve seal looks like on your engine.

[hurley97]

I'll be picking up another head so we can do this out of the car then just swap it in later, that way I can switch out the head gasket and some other things that I should probably change before I continue with my plans

that being said, do you have any more pics/info about replacing the guides?

I'm beginning to understand much more, thanks for bearing with me on this

new head is like 200-220 from a company called alabama heads i think, NEW valves, guides, seals everything, haven't put one on my car yet, but stuck one on a friends around here n he barely uses any oil, i use maybe a quart every 500-700 miles about, but under heavy acceleration in the morning off a startup it puffs some out the back, if you want me to get some specifics about a whole new head lemme know, or since you work for a parts store (right?) someone there should be able to get you a hook up if nothing else

I guess that would be the easiest and most cost effective way to do it, but I kind of want to take it apart for the learning experience... or maybe just because I'm retarded...

This post has been edited by hurley97: Mar 26, 2007 - 4:15 PM

[alltracman78]

No problem.

I don't have any pics of replacing the guides.
That requires a press for our heads. I would highly suggest you leave that to a machine shop.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know what goes on in there.
That's how I started learning. I took EVERYTHING on my car apart.

[hurley97]

I'm going to use Jeff's old 7A. same year, nearly the same amount of miles, having the same problem.
...but instead of just swapping in a 3S I'm fixing the 7A ...oh well, I think I'll be happy with it in the end

[kevstir]

at about 90k (about 3 years ago) on my 3s-ge i noticed that i would use a bit more oil than usual and get the blue smoke at start up, i changed the oil for that castrol gtx high mileage stuff for about 6-7k, after running that for a while i noticed that the blue smoke on startup disappeared (think the seal conditioners in the oil must have worked), the next 2 oil changed i used siloline pr s synthetic oil and only now (122k) am i starting to notice that it using a little more oil again and a wee puff of blue smoke in the morning , the oil needs changed so that could be some of the problem im seeing now ..

might be worth using some of the high mileage oil every now and again to keep the seals conditioned..

[hurley97]

thats what I use regularly, Castrol GTX High Mileage

the motor has 181,000 miles on it now, its just tired

[lagos]

before you take the head apart, measure the valve clearances and write them all down. if any of them are out of spec or close to it, youll need to buy new shims. it will be a super easy job when you have the head apart.

but... instead of doing all this work for no gains, why dont you think about doing a silvertop swap? hmm... then again, that would also be a lot of work with little gain..lol

[pittfirefighter]

just FYI, talking to toyota techs, it is NORMAL for a toyota to use up to 1 quart of oil for every 1000 miles and acceptable up to 1400 miles....

[Jeremiah]

For the record, I've got 242,000 miles on my baby, and she burns about a quart every 3000 miles. Faster (1q every 1500mi) if I'm doing 90%+ freeway driving. I'm pretty anal retentive about my servicing, and only use good quality (notice I didn't say high priced or synthetic) oil & filters. I also use 1/2q of ATF to flush my system about 200 miles before every other oil change. I have no idea what my compression is, but for 240k+, my little 1.8L seems to be fairly happy / peppy.

Just go to walmart and buy a 7$ 5qt jug of supertech or something cheap and use it to top off every few weeks.

The oil chemists at BITOG love the SuperTech High Mileage oil (They've done several before / after chemical analysis of the oil). It's $8 for 5 quart bottle at Wal-Mart. Unless you're burning through oil SUPER fast (more than 1q every 1000 miles), get the high mileage stuff. It's only about 20 cents more a quart, and has way more good stuff (detergents, and anti-wear goodies) in it than the regular SuperTech.

SuperTech filters are great too... well suited for 3000-6000 mile change intervals, and Napa Golds (actually made by WIX) are great for Synthetics and their 10,000 - 15,000 mile change intervals.

Is it hard to do valve seals? The kit is like $30 some isnt it??

I've changed the guides in a Civic, and an Isuzu Trooper. It's not hard, but it'll take you all day and it REALLY helps to have a friend around who can lend a hand. Trick for changing the guide seals with the head ON:
1) Make sure the cylinder you're working on is in Top Dead Center (TDC). The instructions for this can be found in a repair manual / online under valve adjustment.
2) Pull spark plug
3) Stuff a small rope / rip cord into the spark plug hole. Important: be sure to fill the whole cylinder area / head, as this rope is what's going to keep your valve from falling into your engine.
4) Use your favorite repair manual's instructions to Remove / Replace valve guide seals for this cylinder. It'll involve a special tool (see below) to compress the valve springs, then remove some kind of retainer (c-clip usually), setting aside spring, then replacing the guide seals.
5) There should be another cylinder under a TDC stroke now too (refer to manual to make sure) - do your rope stuff & Remove / Replace seals on this one too.
6) Remove rope.
7) Turn crank 'till the other two cylinders are in TDC, and do them.
8) Feed friend a coke and some Pizza.

If the valve DOES slip into the engine, you just have to remove the head and retrieve it.... which will add another day to your project. I've changed valve guide seals on two vehicles now, and this method worked really well (combined with a good oil flushing, this reduced oil consumption). Friends have used it with great success too.

Valve compressor (like the one pictured above), rent for free from AutoZone, or these from Harbor Freight:



Each head is built differently, so the compression tools may differ from my jobs... but the three pronged deals worked fine for me.

what does the ATF do for it? and is it really safe to do that?

Adding 1/2 (Or, full quart if you can do it without over-filling) quart of ATF in your engine for a short period of time (100 - 500 miles) is not only safe, but very healthy for your engine. The oil in ATF has the same stuff in it as your regular oil, but a way higher concentration of the cleaning agents (detergents), because it's designed to sit in an automatic transmission for a LONG time. Basically you're giving the inside of your engine a nice chemical bath - and a clean engine is a happy engine.


hurley97:
If you're going to change out your head, consider upgrading to the 4AGE head while you're at it. More power = yum.

[alltracman78]

Yeah, ATF is LOADED with cleaners. If you ever rebuild an auto trans, you will see how much cleaner your hands are afterwards.

Those 3 prong compressors won't work on a A series, or pretty much any modern Toyota engine.
There isn't enough space beside the spring.

just FYI, talking to toyota techs, it is NORMAL for a toyota to use up to 1 quart of oil for every 1000 miles and acceptable up to 1400 miles....

Really....
That's news to me....

[hurley97]

before you take the head apart, measure the valve clearances and write them all down. if any of them are out of spec or close to it, youll need to buy new shims. it will be a super easy job when you have the head apart.

but... instead of doing all this work for no gains, why dont you think about doing a silvertop swap? hmm... then again, that would also be a lot of work with little gain..lol

ok. I don't know what the in/out of spec numbers are
my plan was just to take it apart and see the condition of everything else in there and figure out what else I should replace. I'll definitely take some pictures and get some opinions since most likely I won't really know myself

just FYI, talking to toyota techs, it is NORMAL for a toyota to use up to 1 quart of oil for every 1000 miles and acceptable up to 1400 miles....

yeah, my car goes through about twice that... since I've had the car I've always changed the oil as close to every 3k miles as possible (and never left more than 1-2k miles past due) and I always had at least 2qts left when I changed it (thats when I was past due, when it was done on time I'd usually have 3qts left), my oil light had never come on up until about 15k miles ago. so I know what was normal for my car and noticed how much more it started using. it was kind of all of a sudden too...

For the record, I've got 242,000 miles on my baby, and she burns about a quart every 3000 miles. Faster (1q every 1500mi) if I'm doing 90%+ freeway driving. I'm pretty anal retentive about my servicing, and only use good quality (notice I didn't say high priced or synthetic) oil & filters. I also use 1/2q of ATF to flush my system about 200 miles before every other oil change. I have no idea what my compression is, but for 240k+, my little 1.8L seems to be fairly happy / peppy.

theres nothing else wrong with the motor, its in great condition. every mechanic I've asked to look at the car can't believe how many miles are on it, they say it runs incredibly smooth and has been very well taken care of. the compression is consistent, it just goes through a lot of oil.

[lagos]

ok. I don't know what the in/out of spec numbers are

look in the bgb. they have them in there. im doing my valve clearances right now. its a pretty simple job.

yeah, my car goes through about twice that... since I've had the car I've always changed the oil as close to every 3k miles as possible (and never left more than 1-2k miles past due) and I always had at least 2qts left when I changed it (thats when I was past due, when it was done on time I'd usually have 3qts left), my oil light had never come on up until about 15k miles ago. so I know what was normal for my car and noticed how much more it started using. it was kind of all of a sudden too...

do you check your oil between changes and top it off where needed? you make it sound like you dont.

[hurley97]

yeah, my car goes through about twice that... since I've had the car I've always changed the oil as close to every 3k miles as possible (and never left more than 1-2k miles past due) and I always had at least 2qts left when I changed it (thats when I was past due, when it was done on time I'd usually have 3qts left), my oil light had never come on up until about 15k miles ago. so I know what was normal for my car and noticed how much more it started using. it was kind of all of a sudden too...

do you check your oil between changes and top it off where needed? you make it sound like you dont.

if I check it and its below half then I'll put a quart in and make a mental note to change it within the next week or two. but lately its been going through it so fast the light comes on before I check, so I just add a quart or two every time the light comes on and try and change it within the week

which reminds me I haven't changed it in a while and I don't think I have a spare quart in the trunk....