st205 Chargecooler Modifications, Is it possible to improve the existing design? Options

[Insanity-74]

I origionally posted this on the GT4 Owners club and it went in an interesting direction with ideas, I was just wondering where it would go on here.......

My mind is working overtime again, been thinking about making the charge cooler more effective...I dont like the idea of a FMIC so I was thinking what could I do to make the existing chargecooler system better, and maybe combining all together.......

thought #1
Adding a swirl pot sytem to the charge cooler, this has got to help by removing all the air from the system, you all know how a swirl pot works so I`ll say no more about it, but its a reasonably cheap method of improving the chargecooler set up

thought #2
making the radiator bigger - there is a company near me who recons they cam make a thicker and taller radiator for the charge cooler, this would increase the capacity of the system by about 0.5l and cool the liquid quicker.

thought #3
Adding some spal fans - and connecting them to the charge cooler pump...when the pump comes on, so do the fans

thought #4
Increasing liquid capacity - adding a big tank to the inner wing that will increase the capacity of the charge cooler system by about 5-7L...it would mean a longer run of pipe work and I`d need a fully sealed tank so that it didnt leak liquid......would the pump be able to cope with the potential extra strain of pumping more water???????

thought #5
adding a low voltage chiller unit from a fridge to the system....not entirely convinced by this one but it could chill the charge cooler liquid when the pump isnt running so that when you do floor it from the lights you get a cold burst of water into the system.

I think that some of these ideas are better than others, particularly like the bigger radiator ideas and increasing the capacity of the liquid in the charge cooler system.....I think these combined might be able to bring it into line with the FMIC systems, but without the associated lag etc.

What is everyones thoughts????????

[zCelicaDude]

well done! i like idea 3... i would do it if i hadnt of gone with a front mount... frount mount is just easier to do and more cost effective.. the gains are higher and lag doesnt seem to be an issue for my setup... i have the piping run a lot shorter then most other gt4 people... i.e. it is impossible to make the piping run any shorter.. all custom made.

[Insanity-74]

I agree a FMIC is cheaper and easier and has good gains for the outlay, but I like the chargecooler set up...its kind of the essence of a GT4 and I recon it could be made better than a FMIC set up, its just how to do it??? I know you could use a posh barrel chargecooler which would be good for 1200BHP...way more than a GT4 could ever produce, and it can get inlet temps down to 10deg above ambient temp which is pretty good. But they are dam expensive. My challenge ti myself is to get the existing chargecooler to be as good as it possibly can be.

[qatar11]

Just wondering aloud here... this design was on a WRC Rally car.... what do you suppose the reason was to go with an obvious heavier, more complicated W/A system then a big fat FMIC?

[qatar11]

As for ideas for improvement - I am all about getting a larger heat exchanger as mine was run through with a forklift during shipping... fukkers....

you could spray the heat exchanger with NO2

you could use a different coolant - some kind of unobtanium coolant - you know the stuff they used in that batman movie when the batsuit had nipples

#4 seems pretty reasonable, I'm not sure if the pump would notice that it pumps more water... the pressure won't change I feel - the volume just gets bigger

#5 is pretty unreasonable - the current draw of a Peltier is substantial and you'd have to cool the hot side of it - which gets TOASTY - using the existing A/C system however would be an interesting modification - though in a round about way you would prolly be violating the #2? law of thermodynamics here...

I think a pretty easy mod would be water injection into the airstream... fensport has a lot of goodies in re: to WI

[Insanity-74]

Just wondering aloud here... this design was on a WRC Rally car.... what do you suppose the reason was to go with an obvious heavier, more complicated W/A system then a big fat FMIC?

The ST205 rally cars had a deeper chargecooler with a more dense lay out of the cooling core. The cooling properties of a chargecooler are better than a similar sized FMIC and are more efective at slower speeds than a FMIC.

Quotes from some research-
over on the GT4oc


Originally Posted by Hot Compact & Imports magazine
The tube and fin core design is the most economical to produce and therefore more affordable to consumers. The tube and fin intercooler is also relatively light in comparison to the bar and plate design (Like Kevin said), affording users a slight weight reduction. When the charge air enters the end tank, it travels through tubes in which the heat is transferred via fins where cooler ambient air passes over the tubes. This further removes heat from the air before exiting the opposite end tank en route to the engine. All in all, the tube and fin intercooler is perfect for the tuners building their first custom turbo systems on limited budgets. The disadvantages to the tube and fin intercooler is that its effective efficiency is lower when compared to a similar sized bar and plate intercooler.

Bar and plate intercooler cores function identically to the tube and fin core, with the exception that charge air travels through rectangular shaped passages that have more surface area, thus improving cooling of the air charge. The advantage to using this type of intercooler is that because the bar and plate core design affords up to 35% larger surface area for cooling, a physically smaller intercooler can be used and still retain the cooling characteristics (efficiency) of a larger tube and fin design. This is important for a builder who has a vehicle with a small opening in the front of it or where there are immovable obstructions present. There is a downside to this design, too, as it is generally more expensive due to the extent of fabrication that is involved in its construction. The bar and plate intercooler is also heavier due to the larger surface area and denser fin design. Simply put, it generally contains more material, thus the heavier weight.

The subject of tight space leads us to the third type of intercooler, the air to liquid or air to water, as it is commonly called. While the function of the air to water intercooler is the same as the air to air intercooler, its design and application differ greatly, as does its cost. The air to water intercooler is primarily used where space is at a premium and where plumbing intercooler piping to the front of the vehicle isn't practical. An example of this would be a mid engine vehicle such as the Acura NSX. Running intercooler pipes from the engine in the rear of the vehicle all the way to the front increases turbo lag, dampens throttle response and would be far more expensive. By using an air to water intercooler, all of these problems can be alleviated.

To better understand how this intercooler works, picture an air to air intercooler that's encased in sheetmetal. How does a design like that cool the charge air? There's more to this design than passing air over its cooling surfaces, as a liquid (such as water) is pumped through a fitting on the casing at one end and exits though a fitting on the other. Water passes over the core that has a denser fin design when compared to an air to air intercooler, since water is being forced throught it. As the water passes through the core, heat from the charge air within is removed. This effect is amplified by passing the heated water through a heat exchanger, located in direct flow of ambient air. This is a continuous process that results in the efficiency of the intercooler, which can approach or exceed 90% in many applications. This, of course, results in higher power levels and a greatly reduced chance of detonation.

The high efficency of the air to water intercooler allows its phyiscal size to be much smaller than even the bar and plate intercooler, which is a definite plus to owners of cramped engine compartments. If you wish to go one step further, you can place the intercooler in such a way that ambient air will pass over it as well, adding to the cooling effect. While this setup sounds great on paper, it's not without drawbacks. The problem with this setup is that it is not very practical for most street applications, as the ancillaries - such as waterpump, cooling tank/reservoir and lines - consume considerable space. Plus, the water and/or ice must be changed once it warms up or melts. For this reason alone, you mainly see air to liquid intercoolers used on race-only vehicles

[lubu]

thought #2
making the radiator bigger - there is a company near me who recons they cam make a thicker and taller radiator for the charge cooler, this would increase the capacity of the system by about 0.5l and cool the liquid quicker.

this has been done by some one near my house. He got a bigger radiator and yes it cools the coolant a lil better also he has this motec cooler, this has denser cores and suspose to cool the air more efficiently...hes selling the setup for 900AUD. a lil over priced IMO.

[Insanity-74]

thought #2
making the radiator bigger - there is a company near me who recons they cam make a thicker and taller radiator for the charge cooler, this would increase the capacity of the system by about 0.5l and cool the liquid quicker.

this has been done by some one near my house. He got a bigger radiator and yes it cools the coolant a lil better also he has this motec cooler, this has denser cores and suspose to cool the air more efficiently...hes selling the setup for 900AUD. a lil over priced IMO.

900aud is about £250 UK...I`d bite his hand off...do you have any details/pictures????

[lubu]

nope...but if ur really interested i can take a look. dont you have one under ur bonnet already?

[Insanity-74]

Yes I do, but if its an improvement over the origional one then that has to be a bonus. cheers

[mellow]

thought #3
Adding some spal fans - and connecting them to the charge cooler pump...when the pump comes on, so do the fans

Sorry for OT guys, but I'm just wondering how it is with this pump ?

Does the pump work all the time ? or does it switch on when set temp is reached ?
if so where is the temp sensor in this cooling system ?

Thanks

[Insanity-74]

The pump works when you press the throttle, it dosnt function via a temp sensor, although it should.

[CilverSeliST205]

If your water reservour is a vertical tube you could bubble co2 from bottom and it would cool the liquid to below ambient, and you could have a purge on the cold side of intercooler so the built pressure would push coolant quicker and chilly co2 bubbles would travel through the heat exchanger and intercooler core.

[playr158]

larger more efficient heat exchanger is going to be the simplest best way to go.

we did it on a rare Mercedes with a SC and the temp difference went from not able to touch the Super Charger to being able to rest your hand on it.

also running distilled water + something like water wetter will help with cooling a lot as well.

then Nitrous express makes a setup that you could use on the heat exchanger core as well
http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Catalog/2007/ntercooler.pdf (typically used on an FMIC)

This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 24, 2007 - 10:09 AM

[beno]

how much is a posh barrel chargecooler btw?

[Insanity-74]

how much is a posh barrel chargecooler btw?

In the UK they are about £500 ish...probably alot cheaper everywhere else.

Have been looking alot into the Co2 injection for the front rad, looks a likely future upgrade, also had a look at fitting some of the water injectors from the WRC cars and activating them via a pressure/throttle switch, you can buy the injection system from the dealers for a very cheap price.

[beno]

werent you going to spend $230 on a radiator? not really worth waiting and saving for that posh barrel cc? then you dont have to worry about filling up a Co2 bottle and it will always be constant cold temps with that cc plus it will be nice and clean

This post has been edited by beno: Oct 8, 2007 - 4:03 AM

[alltracman78]

You're still going to need some type of heat exchanger.
Unless it's a pure race car and you use a refillable tank.

Easiest way would be a larger heat exchanger along with a spray for it.
CO2 would work good.
So would rubbing alcohol instead of water.
Source garden misters or such as nozzles.

What about constant running of the pump?
I wired a resistor with mine so it won't run quite at full speed, but runs all the time.
I know you have a harder time getting rid of code 54, but can you just add power and/or ground wires as a second circuit?

Will you have to mount a larger HE in front of everything else?
Or will it fit behind all the coolers and brackets?

[Supersprynt]

I bought a couple WRX STi intercooler sprayer nozzles to spray on my HX - but they weren't cheap.