Serious 500HP Engine Rebuild!! Need your help !, After the first engine rebuild went totally wrong Options

[snakeloa]

Hello Mates,

i need your help. And i need it desperatly!

My old engine rebuild went totally wrong. I will shortly tell you (the original Topic can be found here):
After a small scratch found in one of my cylinder walls we decided to rebuild the engine. As the scratch was to big to bore it out slightly and use oversize pistonrings we decided to bore it out bigger and sleeve the block with Chrome Molly Ductile Sleeves and fit slightly oversized CP Pistons 86,5mm with outer polymer friction coating and ceramic top coating in it. We decided to sleeve as the goals were to high to believe that the thinn walls could keep up with it.

Well to make it short the messed up the sleeves and the block (and the cams and and ..). We decided to buy new sleeves and to let them try again (it is our law who tells us to give a 2.nd chance) They sleeved it again and i hoped they did a good job. As was sure about it i sent the whole engine to the US to enginelogics (he fully ported the cylinderhead). He called in yesterday....

"Yes bad news he said. We opened the crate today and unfortunately I do have to give you bad news. Who ever did the sleeving work did a very poor job of it. I am sure you noticed that the some areas of flange part of the sleeve does not even touch the side of the block. This is total unacceptable and it is my opinion that if I were to use that block the engine will not last very long."

The next problem is that we seem not to be able to get a 3rd set of sleeves as he would have to order 10 sets and pay them in advance. That is to much to ask him.

OK now its time for a really serious engine rebuild!
And i need your Help

My goals were and are:
500bhp of an engine that can rev up to 8500
the focus was on good torque troughout the whole rev range.
The car should be for the nice mountain roads here in the black forest. A pure fun car for sportive driving.
I do not go onto the track often and do not need a lot of 1/4 miles to face.
My old Spec sheet can found in my signature!

Well the question is now were to start over again. Please keep the goals in mind and i only have one more try. I allready spent a fortune.

All parts are fine except the block and the sleeves. They are to unstable for my kind of goals.

What new block would be good to use?
Does it have to be sleeved?

cheers Joerg
And i hope you can help.

This post has been edited by snakeloa: Sep 6, 2008 - 3:24 PM

[DEATH]

One thing I have noticed about ChrisK - he's never happy with parts he didn't source himself. Not saying that's the case here but since I live near his shop and know a bunch of MR2T guys I have heard this story often.
Just thought you should know.
good luck man. There are a few 3S-GTE's in the junkyards here - not sure if that's useful to you tho?

[snakeloa]

3SGTE Engines? on which junkyard? Would it be good to use one of them?

What do you think about his work? as i read some not so nice topics about him in the MR2 forum.

[snakeloa]

Well to behonest i hoped to get a tiny bit more of information

Could please somebody help me with this. I need to know which setups are common and good for a 500hp Engine.

Which kind of blocks (3SGTE gen 2 or 3, 5S...? )could i use for my above mentioned goals?
Does it have to be sleeved?
Can i use my other parts i have (rods, pistons, crank, head)???

thank you for any advice!

[playr158]

If you want to get sleeves for the block, chrisk is probably full of crap saying he has to order 10 sets.
(he even has single sets for sale on his site?!)

I would probably talk to the guys at ATS, they do good work and know their stuff.
http://www.atsracing.net

a 2.2L stroker kit would rock too
http://www.atsracing.net/strokershortblock.htm
just give them your messed up block as the core.
you'll get a fresh setup ready to start working on

This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 8, 2008 - 6:43 AM

[snakeloa]

I thought about ATS allready as well. What do you think about ChrisK's work?
Would you recommend a new 3SGTE block?
What about these 5S blocks would it be a good choice too?

Cheers Joerg

[97lestyousay]

From a conversation with a guy that drag races. I am no expert but I remember stuff.lol

just a quick question...why a 5s block ?

stronger than any 3s gen 1 or 2, haven't done a 3rd gen yet.

How do you figure a 5s block is stronger than a 3s block. Ive seen dozens of 5s-fe throw a rod for no reason, on a well maintained car, being driven normally, with plenty of oil. Just curious. Not trying to criticize you.

the oiling system on factory 5s sucks your right, when i take a 3s and a 5s block and put over 40 lb of boost and run it down the 1/4 mile and crack the 3s block almost every time and "NEVER CRACK" the 5s block, that's why the 5s block is stronger for me and other reason.

[snakeloa]

I heard that the 5S block would be stronger as well, because it has a different casted iron (i think i remember they said it uses less "silikon" in its cast iron then the japanese 3 SGTE). The result would be a stronger block but which needs to be run with bigger clearances. The 3SGTE can be drivern with less clearances.

That would maybe explain what this guy told you.
Will the 5SFE (is that the right Product name?) fit into my ST205 and bolt on my 3SGTE head???

Jörch

[x_itchy_b_x]

forged rods, pistons, cams 264's at least for responsiveness, intake manifold, larger turbo, more fuel, standalone, shimmed oil pump or a camry oil pump, ARP hardware.

[playr158]

forged rods, pistons, cams 264's at least for responsiveness, intake manifold, larger turbo, more fuel, standalone, shimmed oil pump or a camry oil pump, ARP hardware.

ATS offers a high flow oil pump. Would you suggest this?

[snakeloa]

This is a part of my spec list:

ARP Head Bolts
ARP Main Studs
ATS Twin Plate Carbon Clutch
Pirate-Tuning GTR35 Kit
Blitz SUS Air Intake
Custom Chrome Molly Ductile Sleeves
destroyed during rebuild!
CP Pistons 86,5mm with outer polymer friction coating and ceramic top coating
Full Street Port (Ported ans polished cylinder head)
Ferrea Intake and Exhaust Valves 1mm oversized
JUN Cam Slide Sprockets In / Ex
Jun Cam Shaft 272° Hi Lift Intake
Jun Cam Shaft 264° Hi Lift Exhaust
NGK IRIWAY Spark Plugs
Pauter Conrods
Sard 265 L/Hr Fuel Pump
Sard Fuel Regulator
Sard Side 800cc Feed Injectors low impendance (will get bigger ones with custom fuel rail!)
Shim-less buckets
SplitFire V Charger Spark Wire
TTE 1,4mm Headgasket
Treated Clevitte Bearings
Titanium Retainers and valve springs
TRD Sports Oil Filter
Used 3SGTE Block no good anymore as the bloddy mechanic bored it out and sleeved it way to bad. TWICE

So i think the internals look not to bad!
Waht i need to know is which block?!? And will it fit to my other parts like Pistons, Rods...?

Jörch

[snakeloa]

Ok Chris K found a block for me 350$. I sent him an email to find out if it was a "weak" production casting or a "strong" one.

More questions are comming up like :

Would you still consider sleeving the block even when it is a “strong one”?

topic fuel supply (top fuel rail, 1000cc injectors, Fuel pump setup, size of fuel lines…???)

and do i need a bigger Throttle body ? FMIC???

[Jiipee79]

Get yourself an Altezza 3S-GE block, it is much stronger than any other 3S. It is smaller bore than 3S-GTE (85.? mm). Can`t remember for sure but they claim that it is the block that was used in wrc Corolla.
What turbo you are planning to use ? I have seen a Celica dyno print with ct20brb (wrc turbo) and it was quite impressive 480 HP and 730 Nm torque with 2.05 bar boost.

[playr158]

Ok Chris K found a block for me 350$. I sent him an email to find out if it was a "weak" production casting or a "strong" one.

More questions are comming up like :

Would you still consider sleeving the block even when it is a “strong one”?

topic fuel supply (top fuel rail, 1000cc injectors, Fuel pump setup, size of fuel lines…???)

and do i need a bigger Throttle body ? FMIC???

you can buy prebuilt blocks from ATS :eeps:

[snakeloa]

Has anybody got further techdetails regarding the

Altezza 3S-GE block

May pistons i would have here are 86,5mm !

Would it be a kind of plug and play?

[Jiipee79]

Step2 in Italy has real wrc Corolla spares for sale. See here http://www.step2.it/engl/sparts/default.asp

[ice23q]

You pretty much have the same setup as me only im running a 5sgte. All your stuff will bolt to a 5sfe 2.2 ltr block and crank. However you will need new rods.
Have a look at my 5sgte build time and see what you think, dont worrie about all the dramas i had its just the way my luck went during the build. Also have a look at GAS MOTORSPORT here in Sydney.... You can try FENSPORT know there shuff www.fensport.co.uk in England. They have some wicked 3sgte setups and are very helpful.

[snakeloa]

Hello Ice23g,

i will look into the thread as soon as possible. Thank you for the advice. One question in advance: How much boost and what levels of torque and Hp are you going to run?

Joerg

[tufy]

Get yourself an Altezza 3S-GE block, it is much stronger than any other 3S. It is smaller bore than 3S-GTE (85.? mm). Can`t remember for sure but they claim that it is the block that was used in wrc Corolla.
What turbo you are planning to use ? I have seen a Celica dyno print with ct20brb (wrc turbo) and it was quite impressive 480 HP and 730 Nm torque with 2.05 bar boost.

but a stock ct20b turbo cannot reach somewhere near 400bhp.
a 4th gen 3sgte block will do its job well for your goals. and still its a gt-four block
even my old 1mm overbored block is working fine. but this is luck. sometimes strongest think on your car breaks
good luck.

This post has been edited by tufy: Oct 17, 2008 - 3:03 AM

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

that Jiipee dude was talking about the turbos tte used on the rally cars, not the stock ct20b (aka ct26 gen3) found on the 205's, however i have made around 370 fly hp with a completly stock ct20b

contact fensport, they and the gtfour guru's and they will hand out the best advise. Get a short motor built by them would be my best advice.
Shot peen the stock rods and crank, get them crack tested.
gen3 or 4 block (get ultrasound to determin wall thickness.
use 5s-fe crank if you want extra capacity, or stock if you dont.
always use new water pumps, oil pump, tentioners etc etc, you could get the oil pump relief shimmed up a smidge if you wanted extra preasure.

also have a read through some of the build threads on www.gt4oc.net.

This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Oct 17, 2008 - 3:11 AM