3SGE Beams VS 4AGE Blacktop 6SPD Options

[soulshadow]

A beam tottaly owns the 4age in the 1/4 mile.
C'mon if your racing a beams and a 4age in a celica, the 4age is gonna lose its only a 1.6 with 6 spd (165hp). Your never gonna go fast enough to use that 6th gear before the finish line.

[BLACKcelicaGT]

i didnt think i had to get so specific. of course, id be putting low comp pistons and little mods here and there to make the turbo work. i wouldnt turbo a 11:1 compression motor... c'mon man.lol.

by lowering the compression then turbo charging it you just made a really expensive 3sgte with a pretty red top

This post has been edited by BLACKcelicaGT: Mar 13, 2006 - 2:26 AM

[delusionz]

I know I'm digging up an old thread here, but would the redtop 3s-ge beams head not have better flow characteristics than a silvertop 3s-ge head? and what about changing the vvt-i changeover point to be at the point of positive boost....

Just in querying in response to claims that turboing a red top would not give u better power than starting with a 3s-gte itself... What I have in mind is the update to the 1jz-gte engine in the JDM Toyota Soarer (Aka Lexus SC300 to you guys) in 1996 where the engine went from IL6 2500cc twin turbo to IL6 2500cc single turbo VVT-i, the hp figure remained 276hp but the torque figures looked a hell of alot better; 378Nm @ 2400RPM for VVT-i and 363Nm @ 4800RPM for the older twin turbo (numbers from from wikipedia).. Thoughts anyone?

[Kwanza26]

I know I'm digging up an old thread here, but would the redtop 3s-ge beams head not have better flow characteristics than a silvertop 3s-ge head? and what about changing the vvt-i changeover point to be at the point of positive boost....

Just in querying in response to claims that turboing a red top would not give u better power than starting with a 3s-gte itself... What I have in mind is the update to the 1jz-gte engine in the JDM Toyota Soarer (Aka Lexus SC300 to you guys) in 1996 where the engine went from IL6 2500cc twin turbo to IL6 2500cc single turbo VVT-i, the hp figure remained 276hp but the torque figures looked a hell of alot better; 378Nm @ 2400RPM for VVT-i and 363Nm @ 4800RPM for the older twin turbo (numbers from from wikipedia).. Thoughts anyone?

Reviving a very old thread... heh

First off, I should correct your statement "silvertop 3s-ge". I'm going to assume you're talking about the silvertop 4age. In which case, the silvertop 4age, although it does have 3 intake valves, the actual valve surface is only marginally larger than a standard 16v 4age. I don't think it has better flow characteristics than a Beams redtop 3sge, given the beams head makes near 200hp at the same revolutions as the silvertop 20V. The difference is, the 4A block is much better designed to rev, whereas the 3S block is not, yet the 3SGE still matches the 4AGE silvertop in terms of hp per liter. Not to mention the 20V 4ag's have a much better "top-end" intake set-up...

As far as VVTi goes, I think you are confused about the function of VVTi. The purpose of VVTi is to improve throttle response, which is dictated by the torque curve. In terms of raw horsepower, VVTi is negated by the fact it is variable and computer controlled. It does not work, as you mention, like VTEC or VVT where you can change the crossover point. VVTi is always engaging (for the most part) and works based on throttle position, engine speed, etc. It's not a switchover where you would notice power gains. By the time the engine speeds up enough to make maximum power, VVTi is already negated because its function is to provide torque in the mid-range. Basically, it drastically doesn't affect horsepower. Race motors (high horsepower motors) tend to eliminate computer controlled cam timing because, although it can work to improve mid-range torque and overall useability, it's not designed to maximize power, hence you would probably end up with relatively the same amount of power as a normal 3SGTE, because that's essentially wht you'd have built, VVTi or not. So why the trouble?

[parriehunter]

There is a BEAMS motor that they call the "silver/grey" top. It actually has a black head but only has single vvti unlike the black top.

[delusionz]

Sorry Kwanza but step back a minute, I'm referring to my 3rd gen 3S-GE (Yes I know my own motor) as a silvertop head which would be the same head as used in a 3rd gen 3S-GTE. I never made any mention to 4A-GE and I'm well aware that a 4A-GE head would never fit on a 3S motor and why would you ever bother is beyond me.

Now back to the point at hand... 3rd gen head vs 4th gen head for 3S-GTE, I'm talking about torque, since in the top range, displacement is displacement, peak hp is peak hp if its still 2 litres same boost same compression. Purely the benefit of VVT-i for low end rpm response with a turbocharged application is what I'm trying to get at like the comparison I made with the 1jz going from twin turbo to single turbo vvt-i.

And yeah, VVT-i does have a changeover point, in a blacktop 4a-ge levin/trueno its at 4500rpm or 55kph in 2nd gear.

And yeah, I'm sure it's just as controllable as the way I've been able to control the RPM point of ACIS changeover in my 3rd gen 3S-GE (what I call silvertop).

[Kwanza26]

Sorry Kwanza but step back a minute, I'm referring to my 3rd gen 3S-GE (Yes I know my own motor) as a silvertop head which would be the same head as used in a 3rd gen 3S-GTE. I never made any mention to 4A-GE and I'm well aware that a 4A-GE head would never fit on a 3S motor and why would you ever bother is beyond me.

Now back to the point at hand... 3rd gen head vs 4th gen head for 3S-GTE, I'm talking about torque, since in the top range, displacement is displacement, peak hp is peak hp if its still 2 litres same boost same compression. Purely the benefit of VVT-i for low end rpm response with a turbocharged application is what I'm trying to get at like the comparison I made with the 1jz going from twin turbo to single turbo vvt-i.

And yeah, VVT-i does have a changeover point, in a blacktop 4a-ge levin/trueno its at 4500rpm or 55kph in 2nd gear.

And yeah, I'm sure it's just as controllable as the way I've been able to control the RPM point of ACIS changeover in my 3rd gen 3S-GE (what I call silvertop).

This topic was originally about the 4AGE 20V and a Beams 3SGE. When you say "silvertop" in a topic dealing 20V's... how many people are gonna know what you're talking about? And who calls the 3SGE "silvetop" anyway? Wouldn't all engines technically be "silvertops"? heh...

Anyway... yeah... I made no mention of any head swapping either, simply saying there is no comparison between the two ("silvertop" referring to 4AGE... not 3sge). As far as a turbo BEAMS goes... why? I'm not going to say VVTi can't help, because if it's tuned for FI, it surely will, but in this case... why? Why spend the extra thousands of dollars for VVTi when you can spend a few hundred for adjustable cam gears that do the same thing, arguably better in a build for the top numbers? Also, VVTi cannot be controlled to the degree ACIS can. ACIS (older versions anyway) are mechanical so they can be controlled. VVTi is electronic and built into the computer. It cannot be easily controlled, nor can it be tuned without a complete retune of the computer. Specifically, the "i" part of VVTi is its intelligence. There are no set parameters in terms of settings.

As for the 20V's (4AGs)... those are VVT, the predecessor to VVTi and it is different. There is a changeover point, but it also doesn't do the same stuff VVTi does. VVTi can do varying degrees of adjustments based on various inputs, whereas VVT only advances/retards a few degrees or so based on engine speed.

There is a BEAMS motor that they call the "silver/grey" top. It actually has a black head but only has single vvti unlike the black top.

That's specifically a "greytop"... Never heard of anything called a silvertop besides the 4AGE 20V...

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Oct 31, 2008 - 6:24 PM

[delusionz]

ACIS (older versions anyway) are mechanical so they can be controlled. VVTi is electronic and built into the computer. It cannot be easily controlled, nor can it be tuned without a complete retune of the computer. Specifically, the "i" part of VVTi is its intelligence. There are no set parameters in terms of settings.

As for the 20V's (4AGs)... those are VVT, the predecessor to VVTi and it is different. There is a changeover point, but it also doesn't do the same stuff VVTi does. VVTi can do varying degrees of adjustments based on various inputs, whereas VVT only advances/retards a few degrees or so based on engine speed.

If VVT-i is electronic then I'd assume it has an actuator that takes a 12v signal for engage and 0v for disengaged yeah?

Theres only one VVT-i that I know (never owned or driven any other vvt-i), its in my friends blacktop 4a-ge trueno (jdm stuff) because he goes crazy with foot-tech, and when I gave it a drive I punched 2nd gear from 3000 to 8000 to see what its low speed pickup was like and the only changeover Ive ever noticed is at 4500, not like a randomly seeking might be here might be there like ACIS, the whole reason why I made my own ACIS controller is because it would get stuck on/off inappropriately...

[Rusty]

just throwing in my 2cents

The "Grey Top" BEAMS 3S-GE was an available engine option in the Rav4 in Japan. Even though the valve cover on this engine is black, it is referred to as "Grey Top" to differentiate it from the Dual-VVTi "Black Top" in the Altezza. Power output is 177 bhp (132 kW, 180 PS) @ 6600 rpm.

VVT-i, or Variable Valve Timing with intelligence, is an automobile variable valve timing technology developed by Toyota, similar to the i-VTEC technology by Honda. The Toyota VVT-i system replaces the Toyota VVT offered starting in 1991 on the 4A-GE 20-Valve engine. The VVT system is a 2-stage hydraulically controlled cam phasing system.

VVT-i, introduced in 1996, varies the timing of the intake valves by adjusting the relationship between the camshaft drive (belt, scissor-gear or chain) and intake camshaft. Engine oil pressure is applied to an actuator to adjust the camshaft position.

just throwing in my 2cents

I'm not going to say VVTi can't help, because if it's tuned for FI, it surely will, but in this case... why? Why spend the extra thousands of dollars for VVTi when you can spend a few hundred for adjustable cam gears that do the same thing, arguably better in a build for the top numbers?

what like this?

or even 3S-GZE??



BUT both are fine motors 4A-GE's & 3S-GE's

This post has been edited by Rusty: Oct 31, 2008 - 11:18 PM

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

what about 2zz-ge, top motor, vvtl-i...lift is awsome.
dont count it out, 180 hp, 1.8 litre, lighter then both 4a and 3s.

[Rusty]

oh yea I love the lift on that,imagine increasing the displacment to a 2.0L

[delusionz]

Just had crazy ideas about higher peak torque levels from 2000 instead of 3000 or 4000 or even 5800, for the most part, our Celicas are road cars, and 2000 - 4000 RPM is probably where we spend most of the time driving.

[WH95TE]

Jason, where are you? lol

[JoKeRkId613]

Jason, where are you? lol

damn, this thread is ooold! lol. whats up?

[Shigexile]

i would choose the 3sge because my car is a gt and share the same mounts. Plus, the engine is so beautiful looking and RARE!

[soulshadow]

If money was not an issue, I'd find a way to make that Beams a 6SPD.

[mr220v]

Ok, since I own both motors, I have to say the beams 3sge will kick the crap out of a blacktop 4age. For that matter a 2nd or 3rd gen 3sge will be the faster motor.

I have a beams 3sge in a mk2 mr2, and a blacktop 20v in my mk1 mr2. My beams mk2 is faster than my 20v mk1 despite being heavier.

This post has been edited by mr220v: Feb 4, 2009 - 4:05 PM

[Junior]

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

[silver6gc]

Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

[Junior]

Junior Posted Today, 08:55 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but a beams motor running VVTi and turbo WILL produce less power then a 3s-gte. Most turbo charged motors with VVTi or any other variable valve timing (like VTEC) has their variable valve timing removed or disengaged. Variable Valve timing creates too much overlap which reduces the horse power and torque production potential. If you are going to turbo, do not waste the money on a beams. The features of a beams motor that makes it powerful will be lost after installing a turbo. You will NOT have high compression and you will NOT have VVTi.

Are you insane? Have you ever heard of a car called the Supra, or the Soarer as previously mentioned in this thread, they got MORE torque by using VVT-i. Ask any Honda guy, they love vtec with a turbo. I have never in my life met someone who said "Oh I'm going to get rid of my vtec because I'm going to turbo my car instead.". Congratulations you fail.

I can't find the other quote I wanted to use, but to answer it, there is no change-over point with VVT-i. That's all there is to it, no arguments necessary, it is constantly variable based on engine running conditions and load.

Also, to correct any and all presumptions by anybody about the purpose of VVT-i, it's main purpose and function is to replace the EGR system and get better emissions, it is not meant as a power adder but can have the effect in certain cases (i.e. Supra and Soarer). Again, no arguments needed, I have that written "in stone" by Toyota.

You need to check yourself and not be so rude. Do yourself a favour and read up on cam overlap. Variable Valve Timing increases the amount of cam overlap. Reduce this overlap by removing variable valve timing and you'll see power gains in turbo applications. The supra is turbo charged and has VVT-i, but like you said it is to replace the EGR system to get better emissions. This doesn't mean that cars come from the factory tuned to the best of their capabilities. The supra would see better power production if it didn't have VVT-i or and EGR system.