The automotive bailout Options

[playr158]

Does anyone else realize where all this "bailout money" is coming from? A trillion dollars doesn't just come out of thin air! Needless to say, we are all going to be screwed up the a-hole when we retire.

its tax money....but don't worry, the taxes payers are the first inline for pay back...or so they say

[GriffGirl]

No no even better— we'll simply print more!

Have I called the gov't fcuktards yet today? Let's go with asshats for good measure.

[Spider77]

You know its funny, we were talking about this same thing happening a while back during an airspeed class (if anyone here knows what that is they also know how much fun it is). There are these principles that all the Japanese auto guys have been going by for a long time. TOC, Six Sigma, 5S, etc....and now the American auto companies are struggling to change to this "new" formula. Doing more with less really hasnt been a hallmark of American automakers and it shows. The only guys I feel bad for are those who are going to loose their jobs because the guys at the top failed to see a problem when they should have. But on the other hand, if you cant play dont come to the game.

[Akirad1]

i dunno but who ever has 401k check how much you have i had lost like 200 dollars in the past months in mine

[Spider77]

Yeah, I know alot of guys who have something real similar (TSP) and they have noticed a dip, just keep it where its at, it will eventually rebound and get better....I promise. This wouldnt be the first or the last recession that we've had.

[97celiman]

ahhhhh the right wing-ness is killing me...

so let me lay this little scenario on you,

so the guy makes 52k a year for pushing a broom, great, do i think thats right? not necessarily, however i do think he should get paid something maybe not 52 grand but certainly not much less than that, everyone has to have a job, whether it be broom pushing or designing the new gas guzzler for ford, which while it is not a good thing, does require a college degree. so lets rag on the broom pushing guy or the guy who checks groceries or stocks the shelves who works for some mondo corp. and rather than work w/out union security he chose to contribute some of his pay to them, so that he is guaranteed raises at a certain point, rather than going to his "boss" and saying "hey! i make 50 spare tires for the ford escape each day and jim-bob only makes 35, i think i deserve a raise! plus ive been here for 10 years and hes only been here one, but i make the same amount so i want a raise!" do you realize how much this would slow the company down if they had every factory worker come up to there boss and ask for certain things such as raises, healthcare, retirement and these several other benefits? the union member and union are actually saving the company money b/c they are able to produce more b/c ppl arent up and leaving there posts on the line. we say 52k thousand is alot for pushing a broom and it is, dont get me wrong, i think they should make maybe just over the poverty line maybe say 40-45 based on yrs of service plus benefits, however suppose he has a wife and 2.4 kids to feed just like the company exec?

furthermore the unions in different situations such as the airline industry protect pilots and other airline employees from taking MASSIVE paycuts after times like 9/11 (trust me they took several big ones that on avg halved the average first officers pay) however it is still a liveable wage....since the transportation industry is not allowed to go on strike like many other industries bc of woodrow wilson transportation act (our infrastructure would die) it provides a system of checks and balances with the company, the stuff like moving the retirement age up to 65 for pilots is crap i dont want some guy with a walker flying my plane and furthermore the guys that have been there for 30 years at age 60 will just then be promoted to capt. for the 5 last yrs which is crap.

im not saying every janitor should get to make 52k a year but lets not be mad at the janitor, everyone has to and needs a job especially with mouths to feed and when you look at inflation and factor in the cost of living, thats barely enough (if it all) and maybe his wife cant work for some reason or maybe she can and she gets a bank job and makes 40k well combined thats just under 100k and after taxes some less, so i suppose its enough to live comfortably.

i think with unions there needs to be give and take and in this instance the uaw will have to give, it is not there fault that the big 3 make ****ty cars and if anything we should be mad at them for not meeting the demands of the ppl. The unions simply provide a voice for workers who are just a number and want to survive in this world, sadly not every person is fortunate enough to have access to college etc, i know there are a sh*tload of ways to get there but somebody has to do the dirty work otherwise we'd be paying a college grad to push a broom and then where would we be?

we talk of this bailout money as a bad thing and im not saying it is a good thing however i think we would take a bigger hit with thousands of ppl out of jobs (detroit already has enough crime lol) i guarantee if you were in the same situation you would want the protection of the union and no paycut. im sure there are some janitors out there to that are willing to take a paycut if that means keeping there jobs

if you look at line graphs of union membership vs. the overall economic prosperity of the country i guarentee you it is higher when union memberships are higher, they do save time because they take a mass people and offer some sort of stability for them and the country.
part of the problem also lies the classic republican tax cut mantra- they offer tax cuts for the company so that not only do they hypothetically invest in the business (hence creating new jobs (that would be great if it actually worked)) but also they lead you in with a wink and a nod saying "hey shouldnt these guys get the cuts b/c trust me when you've started your own business and you get big and rich you'll want these same tax cuts...trust us" (and then the little elbow nudge) this is all great and it is the american dream to start your business and be successful however i got news for you 3/4 of small business fail within the first year and 9/10 ppl dont make it to the "big time" at all so where does that leave them when they need a job (maybe pushing a broom because all they have is a hs diploma bc they immediately started there business right after high school?)

in the end dont blame the union member for the faults of the company executives that budget the companies money

and just remember, its going to get worse before it gets better

this is just my .02 no offense to anyone

and if you read all of it-props to you

side note: did anyone see jon stewart rip huckabee a new one, awesome...no offense again but it was HARSH

[njccmd2002]

long post... could not read...

we are trying to get blood out of a turnip. They need new designs, new company perspectives and better quality.

Me personally would never buy from these companies.

I worked in toyota my first few months in us, i have seen so many histories when they trade their cars its ridiculous.

[Spider77]

Wow, thats alot of text. Yeah I agree, blame the guys who call the shots. I mean if I wanted to "borrow" 15 billion dollars Id slap on my suit, fly my big ol jet and whine about how I have no money. In fact anyone here paying a mortgage? Why dont we get together, buy a mansion, slap wheels on it and drive to DC and ask for money? Everyone is right in this matter...sort of. Yeah 52k a year for brrom pushing is a bit excessive, screwing the "little" guy isnt fair, asking for money when you really pissed what you had away is selfish. But I think the main point here is that no one bothered to try to fix this before it happened (or when it started), and now that it has, well maybe now things might get better....maybe.

[garin]

The bailout is a stupid idea. The tax payers money should not go to these corporate giants. With the last bailout the the banks received there was no one watching where the money went. i think that these bailouts end up hurting the American economy. I feel for the middle class people who are in danger of losing their jobs, but in the end this bailout will only feed the rich. This bailout is a step towards socialism. I don't care who the president is, or would be, there are serious issues facing this nation and being president is no easy job. Barack Obama will face many challenges. I believe in the end he will have the same approval ratings as Bush. I also believe that President Bush faced a tough time to be the president. We need to respect the leader of our nation even if we do not agree with his policies.

[jesterwr217]

first of all the senario is unrealistic
no line worker is going to walk off the line to ask for a raise and expect to keep his job
52k a year for a janitor is rediculous no matter the cercumstance
unions cluter up production because it keeps companys from being flexable enough to survive
think about the money theyve cost the company the gov. is now trying to bail out because of their strikes just cause they felt like they wanted a raise
40-45k a year is just over the poverty line???? you must have a **** load of money!
learn how to live on 12 dollars an hr
if you work for a company and the company has to make an overhaul to survive and they need to make paycuts or downsize its up to you if you want to stay with the company or find a new job
and i owned my own business and sold it just this past feburary
if your smart with your business and dont waste your money on frivolous things your business will be prospurous
i owned a citgo station and i now work for 7-11 as a store operator making 45k a year
i never went to college and 7-11 doesnt sound much like an appealing place but it is actually a great place to work with excelent benifits
just becuase you dont go to college doesnt mean you cant do something with your life

my final opinions
unions should be disbanded
executives should take major cuts in salary
(including the head janitor makn 52k a year)
the republican tax ideal is great it just needs to be monitored and make sure its being applied correctly
the bailout is a bad idea and the money should be given to the people in trouble to pump back into the economy

[samir0189]

the bailout is a bad idea and the money should be given to the people in trouble to pump back into the economy

Ive been thinking that myself for the longest time. Although its unrealistic and highly unlikely that the government would ever do such a thing, if they gave the money they spent bailing out the banks and now the auto industry to the PEOPLE of America versus the CEOs people would in turn use that money to pay off mortgages and perhaps buy new cars, etc. Like a reverse trickle down, if the people who have problems pay off their debts then the banks and economy would be able to steady itself.

[jesterwr217]

the bailout is a bad idea and the money should be given to the people in trouble to pump back into the economy

Ive been thinking that myself for the longest time. Although its unrealistic and highly unlikely that the government would ever do such a thing, if they gave the money they spent bailing out the banks and now the auto industry to the PEOPLE of America versus the CEOs people would in turn use that money to pay off mortgages and perhaps buy new cars, etc. Like a reverse trickle down, if the people who have problems pay off their debts then the banks and economy would be able to steady itself.

exactly

[goferris]

I agree and disagree with that statement.
I'm all for it because in the long run smart people will be using it to pay off loans and get out of debt or even put it away for a rainy day. You could tax it at 35% so the initial cost would be less therefore less debt for the country.
I'm against it because it is a very communistic thing to do IMO. Everyone's equal bull****.

I say let the companies die. Harsh? Yes. I worked for a company that went out of business. It sucked. I'm alive though. Companies have layoffs all the time so why should some get special treatment?
I'm still pissed about the wall street bailout. AIG spent how much on their little vacation? BS!!

I lived in the Detroit area for a few years and I met a lot of the people that work there. I will be sad if they lose their jobs but in all honesty, but why should they get special treatment? They all have severance packages anyways. They'll be ok if they are smart. Half the workers at the big 3 are living in the Ghetto as it is because they waste their money on booze and pointless junk.

[TRD_Ian]

ok so i have a few things, like before 40 to 45 just above the pov line? fcuk were do you live im moving there lol, im a skilled tradesman and i make about 20 t0 25 g a year if im lucky............iv worked union and non union shops, i like the union ones alot more better money better every thing. but it doesnt make stuff go faster. if any thing it makes it slower and ur making more money, if its non union u have ppl competeing for the job and the work there balls off....i seen it...iv done it

2
bailing these guys out is not gonna do a damn thing i think...hows it gonna make them sell more cars.......and isnt the assembly line like 85 percent robotic any ways? i dont mean to disrespect or any thing but reall how many jobs are on the line here?......... they should suck it up and just down size as much as they can.....apose to bailing them out, we bail them out and down the road it doesnt change any thing and all the ppl and the 85 percent robots dont have jobs, like i said i dont mean to offend but i think it is stupid....ur gov should save ur money

[97celiman]

Wow, thats alot of text. Yeah I agree, blame the guys who call the shots. I mean if I wanted to "borrow" 15 billion dollars Id slap on my suit, fly my big ol jet and whine about how I have no money. In fact anyone here paying a mortgage? Why dont we get together, buy a mansion, slap wheels on it and drive to DC and ask for money? Everyone is right in this matter...sort of. Yeah 52k a year for brrom pushing is a bit excessive, screwing the "little" guy isnt fair, asking for money when you really pissed what you had away is selfish. But I think the main point here is that no one bothered to try to fix this before it happened (or when it started), and now that it has, well maybe now things might get better....maybe.

i like this ^^^ mainly the last line however i think i should clarify
i was refering to the poverty line with 8 kids living in alaska clicky lol

anyway- i should say to live somewhat comfortable-jester i agree with you if you are working those hrs (7am to 11pm?)and making less than the janitor who prob only works 40 hours a week you should be making more- especially in a management position- but instead of being mad at as spider put it "the little guy" or the union for that matter (b/c they are only there to help the proverbial "little guy" i think we should be more upset at the ceo's and higher ups of the big 3's again unions arent out to kill babies or steal christmas (or hanukkah or kwanzaa or the winter solstice) just give a voice to the guy who works as a number for such a mondo corp.

and really although this is not 100% related- unions also help with immigration b/c rather than have x number of illegal immigrants cutting up my beef in somewheresville texas, i have a unionized butcher man getting paid more and not "robbing the system" bc we are paying undocumented workers- and i totally agree the republican tax ideal is great---its just never applied correctly

and props for reading my internet preaching-thanks : )

doesnt the homemade smiley make you feel like i care more ; )

dam there it is again-must be the holidays

o and side note our favorite brand TOYOTA is only laying off 700 part timers and retraining full time staff for plant shutdowns (different jobs) and keeping 40 hr wk and benefits
yay them!!!!

We need to respect the leader of our nation even if we do not agree with his policies.

cough jester cough cough

; )

[Culpable04]

i dunno but who ever has 401k check how much you have i had lost like 200 dollars in the past months in mine

you're still in good standing


I'm not gonna give actual number of my 401K, but I'm gonna let you know that I have lost a little over 55%, and that's including my low risk investments which are what's keeping my account positive.

some of the stock have fallen from US$36.90 to US$11.30 in a matter of a year. I have lost both of my last jobs due to companies relocation, so the local job market in NJ is telling me that I got into the wrong field. I still manage to have some decent job offers which I'm considering at the moment, trying to decided which one is gonna move to another state or close a facility faster than the other.

This bailouts are a joke, even if you don't lose your job now you'll lose it and will never be directly benefit from those billions of dollars, unless you're a CEO or related.


I agree with others when they say a company takes the wrong decisions, then it has to deal with the results, it's so easy to play with your money with no regards of the outcome when you can just put your hands in the basket and take money from the people and start right back again.

[jesterwr217]

Wow, thats alot of text. Yeah I agree, blame the guys who call the shots. I mean if I wanted to "borrow" 15 billion dollars Id slap on my suit, fly my big ol jet and whine about how I have no money. In fact anyone here paying a mortgage? Why dont we get together, buy a mansion, slap wheels on it and drive to DC and ask for money? Everyone is right in this matter...sort of. Yeah 52k a year for brrom pushing is a bit excessive, screwing the "little" guy isnt fair, asking for money when you really pissed what you had away is selfish. But I think the main point here is that no one bothered to try to fix this before it happened (or when it started), and now that it has, well maybe now things might get better....maybe.

i like this ^^^ mainly the last line however i think i should clarify
i was refering to the poverty line with 8 kids living in alaska clicky lol

anyway- i should say to live somewhat comfortable-jester i agree with you if you are working those hrs (7am to 11pm?)and making less than the janitor who prob only works 40 hours a week you should be making more- especially in a management position- but instead of being mad at as spider put it "the little guy" or the union for that matter (b/c they are only there to help the proverbial "little guy" i think we should be more upset at the ceo's and higher ups of the big 3's again unions arent out to kill babies or steal christmas (or hanukkah or kwanzaa or the winter solstice) just give a voice to the guy who works as a number for such a mondo corp.

and really although this is not 100% related- unions also help with immigration b/c rather than have x number of illegal immigrants cutting up my beef in somewheresville texas, i have a unionized butcher man getting paid more and not "robbing the system" bc we are paying undocumented workers- and i totally agree the republican tax ideal is great---its just never applied correctly

and props for reading my internet preaching-thanks : )

doesnt the homemade smiley make you feel like i care more ; )

dam there it is again-must be the holidays

o and side note our favorite brand TOYOTA is only laying off 700 part timers and retraining full time staff for plant shutdowns (different jobs) and keeping 40 hr wk and benefits
yay them!!!!

We need to respect the leader of our nation even if we do not agree with his policies.

cough jester cough cough

; )

its not the norm to live in alaska with 8 kids so you cant call that the poverty line haha
and no i work 530am till roughly 4pm and 7-11 is the company http://www.7-eleven.com/
and im not blaming just the little guy im blaming the rediculously paid "little guy" and his ceo for bleeding thier company dry to the point where it cant sustain itself in a tough time
unions dont do anything for immigration really it just pushes illegal workers into a different area
and thats the thing the rebulican tax ideal should be applied but like i said there should be like an oversight commity to make sure its being used correctly
as far as the toyota situation goes good for toyota theyre taking the right approach to the situation unfortunatelly people are loosing jobs but the company has to stay afloat and props for not robbing tax payer money doing it
as for the respect for our leader line ... well lets keep this on topic but i will say he has a lot of immoral belifes compared to my views and no experience whatsoever so no i dont like him at all but like i said lets keep the thread on topic
o look a self made smilie :-) hahahaha

[playr158]

at the poverty line talk and income comparison.

[Taskbot]

I think your country should take the bailout money and offer it as a severance package for the employees.

If the company gets the bailout money, it just means that the in equal distribution of pay will still continue. Where the janitor is making 52k a year, the CEOs and the Board are making probably 10x that. I mean, they stand absolutely nothing to lose, and right now it seems like the poor are bailing out the rich.

Also, in Ford's case. Have you seen the new European Focus compared to the American one, you know the one that's tearing up gravel in WRC? Sell that here. I'm sure they would sell fairly well, I mean the Mazda Axela (Mazda 3) sells well here and its on the same ****ing platform.. Hell its even got a reputation (albiet a small one) as a tuner vehicle. I don't think they could really fix that whole situation, but that was a stupid mistake in my mind to make a separate North American and European model.

Lastly, don't diss unions. If it weren't for them we would still be living in a Dickensian Nightmare, making 5 cents an hour. Sure, the American Auto Unions suck, but there are still places that need to be Unionised. Well auto unions suck when you compare it to the Japanese model of work. If you put people in tight highly specialized work-groups, give them a little bit of agency and have them cross trained (so if they don't feel like doing the same job they did for the past 5 weeks, they can switch up), plus throw in comparable benefits and pay you've got the Japanese model of work. You need fewer workers, however the workers are much happier and best of all, aren't unionised. They may be paid a little less, however they do not have union dues so it almost works out to be the same in the end.

[Supersprynt]

The bailout was approved - Sweden did the same with Saab & Volvo.

If it helps keep Americans employed, as much as I don't like businesses being bailed out, I'm ok.