2 Stage 3SGTE Swap thread, Stage 1.. almost done =) Options

[SlvrCelica09]

EDIT: 8/22/09
Ok guys before commenting just know my goal is 330 hp until all 2 stages is complete.. so keep that in mind when reading my setup:

95 toyota celica GT
ST205 3sgte swap
GT tranny and axles
Stage 3 clutch kit and flywheel(deciding between 2 I like)
EDIT: ST205 fuel pump
3 inch exhaust(already installed)
ST205 downpipe

Now in order to move on to stage 3 I need to figure out which engine I want.. parts for the 185(non RC) I have found to be relatively easy in case something breaks.. alot of sites have parts for the engine.. but it turns out the 185 wiring is harder than the 205.. im leaning towards the 205.. although i think finding parts for the engine is harder.. the swap should be a bit easier and at stock I would be right at my goal which is 250 hp running stock... i know for a fact there wont be an urge to raise booast levels since stage 2(AWD Conversion) of my swap would not be completed.. and this is my only car which i use for work and not for racing intentions.. 4 now.. lol

so basically I got 2 questions that have been killing me for a while now..
axles.. is it possible to mix and match GT tranny with 3sge axles.. if so that would be a delight but I highly doubt you can.. but im asking for clarification.. and 2.. what engine do you guys think I should go with.. 185 or 205?

This post has been edited by SlvrCelica09: Sep 26, 2009 - 6:32 PM

[mk7celica]

I had my swap done a few months ago and I wish I had gotten a 3rd gen st205 in stead of the st185 I got. It seems like I could have done more mods and gotten more power with a st205. With the st185 It seems like it harer to get more power and cost more money.

[_Jim_]

It seems like I could have done more mods and gotten more power with a st205. With the st185 It seems like it harer to get more power and cost more money.

Thats because it is.

Comparing the 2 setups (GEN2 vs GEN3), both cars with the same mods (intake, exhaust, stock turbo, stock ECU, etc) the GEN2 maxes out at about 240whp, and requires between 3-5000$ to get above 275whp. The GEN3 maxs out at about 330whp, and can be taken to above 360whp on stock ECU and stock Injectors.

GEN3 parts are becoming VERY easy to obtain now that these swaps are becoming more and more popular.....I never have to wait more than a week for parts.

GEN3 FTW

[lagos]

If you can afford it, get a 3rd gen. If money is tight, get a 2nd gen.

the GEN2 maxes out at about 240whp, and requires between 3-5000$ to get above 275whp.

How do you figure it takes 3-5000 to go aboove 275hp? Id argue that it can be done in well under a grand.

btw, the 3sge uses the same s53/54 tranny as our celica GT. There is no difference between their axles or trans with our gt setup. If you want some nice and beeffy looking axles, I recommend going to carquest and getting the new axles Cardone makes.

[95st-celica]

why do you need to mix and match axles? buy 2 brand new axles for a GT and call it a day...they will last you for quite some time...no need to worry...between the gen 2 and gen 3...thats up to you...i think i MIGHT have gone with a 3rd gen...but at the time i had my mind set on a st185 clip that i got from hong kong. now yes the 3rd gen has more horsepower stock for stock...but once your reach a little over 300HP the playing feild is about the same...then gen 2 can be made to handle just as much power as a gen 3...its just little improvments that were done to the 3rd gen to get out an extra 35-40 horsepower....as for wireing....its all a nightmare...doesnt matter which way you look at it...205, 185, whatever...my advice would be send it out and have someone do it professionally..cough cough Tweak cough cough...i got lucky and had Mr. mad scientist himself do mine...heres a couple things you should read up on espically before you jump into a swap.

http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28825

all your answers will be in either one of them ^

[_Jim_]

the GEN2 maxes out at about 240whp, and requires between 3-5000$ to get above 275whp.

How do you figure it takes 3-5000 to go aboove 275hp? Id argue that it can be done in well under a grand.

I am not talking making 300whp relying on meth and SAFC tuning. To me the extra 25-30whp that offers you just inst worth the risk of your Water injection failing, and toasting your motor.

I am basically talking race proven results for the GEN2. Whether you go ATS Tuned Rom Combo (there TD06 kit sells for 3100), or Full EMS, fuel, and turbo kit..... 1500-2000 for an EMS, 2000-3000 for a turbo kit, 400 for injectos, and 500 for a tune.

If by making over 275whp on the GEN2 for under 1000 you mean buying a CT20B, adjustable FPR, bumping base pressure, throwing on an SAFC, etc.....You STILL WOULDNT be making the power that the GEN3 makes stock......so the small savings in going GEN2, and then spending the extra 1000$.....all just to do LESS than what the GEN3 does stock negligible.

Basically, anyway you look at it, the GEN3 will ALWAYS make 80+ MORE whp then the GEN2 when still all on the stock ECU.

[lagos]

Basically, anyway you look at it, the GEN3 will ALWAYS make 80+ MORE whp then the GEN2 when still all on the stock ECU.

What is it about the motor that will always make 80hp more?

I am not talking making 300whp relying on meth and SAFC tuning.

If by making over 275whp on the GEN2 for under 1000 you mean buying a CT20B, adjustable FPR, bumping base pressure, throwing on an SAFC, etc.....

I actually was thinking of a totally different setup.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 13, 2009 - 8:47 PM

[_Jim_]

Basically, anyway you look at it, the GEN3 will ALWAYS make 80+ MORE whp then the GEN2 when still all on the stock ECU.

What is it about the motor that will always make 80hp more?

Better designed Intake manifold, better cams, etc.....But that wasnt what I was really referring to. Granted these parts clearly help make more power.....the real advantage to the GEN3 is the 540cc injectors. With any turbo car (ESPECIALLY THE 3SGTE) , your biggest battle will always be fuel......so when comparing the GEN2 440cc injectors to the GEN3 540cc injectors....No matter how far you take the GEN2 on stock injectors and stock ECU.....you will ALWAYAS have an additonal 80+ more WHP worth of FUEL with the GEN3.

To simplify that a bit more....take "X turbo kit" and put one on each motor set (GEN2 and GEN3) and all other mods being identical (ie. Intake, exhaust, etc). You make 280whp at 15psi on the GEN2, and that is where you are limtied to due to the stock 440cc injectors, and stock ECU.......NOW, take that same turbo and install it on a GEN3 with equal mods and it will make a bit over 300whp at 15psi (the same boost level).....but you ARE NOT LIMTED THERE, you have enough fuel to turn up the boost to say 20psi and make 360whp....showing 80+whp gain over the limits of the GEN2....which will ALWYAS be the case when comparing GEN2 on stock ECU and injectors vs GEN3 on stock ECU and injectors.

I actually was thinking of a totally different setup.

Please share.

[SlvrCelica09]

ok lets stay on topic u guys.. i dont want this thread closed.. but thanks for the advice.. I think ill go with Gen 3 and leave everything stock.. ill post some pics of the engine that i buy when the time comes

[SlvrCelica09]

why do you need to mix and match axles? buy 2 brand new axles for a GT and call it a day...they will last you for quite some time...no need to worry...between the gen 2 and gen 3...thats up to you...i think i MIGHT have gone with a 3rd gen...but at the time i had my mind set on a st185 clip that i got from hong kong. now yes the 3rd gen has more horsepower stock for stock...but once your reach a little over 300HP the playing feild is about the same...then gen 2 can be made to handle just as much power as a gen 3...its just little improvments that were done to the 3rd gen to get out an extra 35-40 horsepower....as for wireing....its all a nightmare...doesnt matter which way you look at it...205, 185, whatever...my advice would be send it out and have someone do it professionally..cough cough Tweak cough cough...i got lucky and had Mr. mad scientist himself do mine...heres a couple things you should read up on espically before you jump into a swap.

http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28825

all your answers will be in either one of them ^

i dont think u understood what i meant.. i didnt say mix and match axles.. i meant mix and match the Gt tranny with 3sge axles.. but im going go with GT tranny and axles.. and im def not "jumping into a swap" this has been planned since 2006 bro.. ive read jeff's 3sgte swap how to a zillion times lol.. ill see what the plan will be for the wiring when the time comes.. got some ppl in my area that have swapped jdm engines into celicas b4.. or i may just do it myself

This post has been edited by SlvrCelica09: Apr 13, 2009 - 10:32 PM

[Celicia]

ok of course go with the 3rd gen please.. dont worry about the parts I can get you whatever you need Mike .. however I would suggest you do AWD conversion first.. well at least you will do it down the road so thats good.. let me know when you buy the engine.. I will help you as much as I can.

[95st-celica]

Basically, anyway you look at it, the GEN3 will ALWAYS make 80+ MORE whp then the GEN2 when still all on the stock ECU.

What is it about the motor that will always make 80hp more?

Better designed Intake manifold, better cams, etc.....But that wasnt what I was really referring to. Granted these parts clearly help make more power.....the real advantage to the GEN3 is the 540cc injectors. With any turbo car (ESPECIALLY THE 3SGTE) , your biggest battle will always be fuel......so when comparing the GEN2 440cc injectors to the GEN3 540cc injectors....No matter how far you take the GEN2 on stock injectors and stock ECU.....you will ALWAYAS have an additonal 80+ more WHP worth of FUEL with the GEN3.

To simplify that a bit more....take "X turbo kit" and put one on each motor set (GEN2 and GEN3) and all other mods being identical (ie. Intake, exhaust, etc). You make 280whp at 15psi on the GEN2, and that is where you are limtied to due to the stock 440cc injectors, and stock ECU.......NOW, take that same turbo and install it on a GEN3 with equal mods and it will make a bit over 300whp at 15psi (the same boost level).....but you ARE NOT LIMTED THERE, you have enough fuel to turn up the boost to say 20psi and make 360whp....showing 80+whp gain over the limits of the GEN2....which will ALWYAS be the case when comparing GEN2 on stock ECU and injectors vs GEN3 on stock ECU and injectors.

I actually was thinking of a totally different setup.

Please share.

jim..besides the injectors, cams, and a few other things the gen 2 and 3 are EXACTLY the same platform...with a tune and larger injectors and cams..the 2nd gen will have no problem making numbers to match a 3rd gen, not to mention upgrading to a ct20b...stock for stock yes the 3rd gen does put out more power...but with little adjustments and for not a lot of money you can easily obtain over 300hp with a 2nd gen in basically stock form...a 3rd gen motor is like a 2nd gen with upgraded stock mods. of course the 3rd gen will put out more power then the 2nd gen but needless to say once both motors have to have upgraded cams, fuel rails, injectors, turbos, etc the playing feild is even. i know you know your **** and im not telling you anything you dont already know..dont get me wrong...but the point im trying to make is that both motors are basically identical, with the 3rd gen having updated and more sophiscated(if you will) modifications stock from toyota

[95st-celica]

why do you need to mix and match axles? buy 2 brand new axles for a GT and call it a day...they will last you for quite some time...no need to worry...between the gen 2 and gen 3...thats up to you...i think i MIGHT have gone with a 3rd gen...but at the time i had my mind set on a st185 clip that i got from hong kong. now yes the 3rd gen has more horsepower stock for stock...but once your reach a little over 300HP the playing feild is about the same...then gen 2 can be made to handle just as much power as a gen 3...its just little improvments that were done to the 3rd gen to get out an extra 35-40 horsepower....as for wireing....its all a nightmare...doesnt matter which way you look at it...205, 185, whatever...my advice would be send it out and have someone do it professionally..cough cough Tweak cough cough...i got lucky and had Mr. mad scientist himself do mine...heres a couple things you should read up on espically before you jump into a swap.

http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/power.htm

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28825

all your answers will be in either one of them ^

i dont think u understood what i meant.. i didnt say mix and match axles.. i meant mix and match the Gt tranny with 3sge axles.. but im going go with GT tranny and axles.. and im def not "jumping into a swap" this has been planned since 2006 bro.. ive read jeff's 3sgte swap how to a zillion times lol.. ill see what the plan will be for the wiring when the time comes.. got some ppl in my area that have swapped jdm engines into celicas b4.. or i may just do it myself

i could have sworn you said 3sge and stock gt axles...unless you edited it out...either way it doesnt matter...your GT axles will hold over 250hp..for quite some time..go to carquest to get your axles...they are a little beefier then the stock ones and are of nice quality...as for the links i posted...it looks like you joined recently so i wasnt sure if you were a noob or not, talking about how you wanna go stage 3 with your motor and slapping on a huge turbo....as long as you research you'll be fine...and as for the wireing harness...have you done a harness before? just out of curiosity? if not it is very difficult, reading diagrams, and getting everything right...good luck either way, im not trying to put you down..just giving you advice i though you might appreciate

[lagos]

i meant mix and match the Gt tranny with 3sge axles..

the 3sge motor actually uses the same s53/54 trans and the same axles as the celica gt.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 13, 2009 - 11:50 PM

[Celicia]

This post has been edited by Celicia: Apr 14, 2009 - 12:01 AM

[_Jim_]

ok lets stay on topic u guys.. i dont want this thread closed.. but thanks for the advice.. I think ill go with Gen 3 and leave everything stock.. ill post some pics of the engine that i buy when the time comes

It is a shame SilverCelica09, that when a dispute/argument/difference of opinion arises, the thread gets cleaned/deleted.....Even if there is solid information to be had. I cant see this being deleted because there is NO hostility amongst any of the members here.....and it is just hashing out ideas basically.

jim..besides the injectors, cams, and a few other things the gen 2 and 3 are EXACTLY the same platform...with a tune and larger injectors and cams..the 2nd gen will have no problem making numbers to match a 3rd gen, not to mention upgrading to a ct20b...stock for stock yes the 3rd gen does put out more power...but with little adjustments and for not a lot of money you can easily obtain over 300hp with a 2nd gen in basically stock form...a 3rd gen motor is like a 2nd gen with upgraded stock mods. of course the 3rd gen will put out more power then the 2nd gen but needless to say once both motors have to have upgraded cams, fuel rails, injectors, turbos, etc the playing feild is even. i know you know your **** and im not telling you anything you dont already know..dont get me wrong...but the point im trying to make is that both motors are basically identical, with the 3rd gen having updated and more sophiscated(if you will) modifications stock from toyota

No offense taken man, this is good information.

You are very much correct in saying the GEN2 and GEN3 become the same platform above a certain WHP number, but it most certainly isnt 300whp. The GEN2 and GEN3 basically become the same platform when going above 400+ WHP. I didnt mean it to sounds as tho the GEN2 could NEVER make the same power as the GEN3, because that is clearly not the case.....What I was trying to get across was that the GEN3 is a MUCH cheaper and more efficient solution for 400 sub WHP.

The problem with the GEN2 (and GEN3 for that matter) is that you cant just swap in bigger injectors and tune out the fuel you dont need like you can do with a 5sfte.....and that is what makes modding a GEN2 VERY expensive......the fuel management end. Dont get me wrong, if you want above 400WHP on a GEN3, you will need an EMS also, BUT......you DONT need an EMS until 400whp, where as a GEN2 you need some sort of fuel management to go over 280whp.

Art, post up the "setup" that you had in mind for the GEN2 that could be had for under 1000.

[lagos]

You are very much correct in saying the GEN2 and GEN3 become the same platform above a certain WHP number, but it most certainly isnt 300whp. The GEN2 and GEN3 basically become the same platform when going above 400+ WHP.

RickyB would have to disagree with you.

The problem with the GEN2 (and GEN3 for that matter) is that you cant just swap in bigger injectors and tune out the fuel you dont need like you can do with a 5sfte

Why not? Because the mr2 community says so? For years those guys have been guilty of never thinking outside the box.
Its funny how all communities stick to one way of thinking. Ask the mr2 guys and they will hate on the safc. Talk to the supra guys and they will swear by the mapecu, go to the subaru guys and they will tell you to retune your car because you changed the color of your rims.

I would love to go into more detail, but Im kind of holding back for two reasons.
1. for some reason these types of debates get deleted on here faster then you can type them
2. Regardless of what I say, I think you will just come back with some kind of reply that shows the 3rd gen motor is touched by the hand of god.

Dont get me wrong, Id rock a 3rd gen motor in a heat beat. Anything is better then the ****ty AFM based EFI and the peashooter turbo. But change those two things, and the playing field is level for both motors.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 14, 2009 - 12:31 PM

[95st-celica]

let us recall the test done by ATS and HUX

First HUX's Racing.....Mods list:
Stock GEN3
4" intake
Blitz SBC boost controller
3" single tip exhaust
boost cut defeated.
Helper Spring
100 octane

Max of 351whp at around 5700 rpms at 22psi (highest psi logged, 24psi at 3700rps, falling to 20psi at redline)...AFR around 11.5

ATS Racing.....Mods list:
Stock GEN2 with GEN3 electronics
3.5" intake
Power FC
Walbro fuel pump
550's
ATS FPR (50 psi)
ATS Rail
Greddy PE exhaust
3" downpipe
Helper Spring
C16 race gas

Max of 353whp at around 5700 rpms at 25psi(highest psi logged, 26psi at 5200rps, faliing to 25.5psi at redline).....AFR around 13.0

Hux......................ATS
CT20B..................CT27
351whp................353whp
22psi....................25psi
AFR 11.5...............AFR 13.0
Stock ECU............Tuned via Power FC

now grant it the gen 2 had 3rd gen electronics...that evens out, it matches the turbo ct27-ct20b i would have to say is somewhat evenly matched..a lot more so then the ct26-the ct20b, and the injectors were bumped up on the 2nd gen...everything else is esentially even...3" exhaust, intake, both are using a helper spring, and using higher octane. Yes the c16 race gas does help a bit more...but this is a pretty even test between the 2 motors..which is a perfect example of how capable a gen 2 is compared to a gen 3. i would say with the mods listed ATS spent about a $1200 more on the gen 2 to put up equal numbers. Not to mention the 2nd gen is probably running stock cams where as the gen 3 has a leg up in that catogory. we could go back and forth about this crap all day long and still get nowhere...but this is a perfect example of not going over 355HP and both motors are putting out equal numbers with little done.

[RUNNIN-LOW]

alright well ill add my little part to this thread!
FTW! u choose the motor 2nd gen or 3rd gen! both motors are a 3SGTE!..both have things that our stock GT's dont have! so for that part u choose it, just research and decide for yourself, what u want. as for the tranny..i would rather u go with the e153 tranny but if money is tight u can use the GT tranny it will hold down the power you are looking for..just dont beat the living hell of it!..
the harness humm...it seems as if your still a virgin on converting harnesses over...so just have someone do it for u..talk to tweak or other people that have done it before.. but first decide on what motor u want!

[_Jim_]

You are very much correct in saying the GEN2 and GEN3 become the same platform above a certain WHP number, but it most certainly isnt 300whp. The GEN2 and GEN3 basically become the same platform when going above 400+ WHP.

RickyB would have to disagree with you.

I wish he was here

The problem with the GEN2 (and GEN3 for that matter) is that you cant just swap in bigger injectors and tune out the fuel you dont need like you can do with a 5sfte

Why not? Because the mr2 community says so? For years those guys have been guilty of never thinking outside the box.
Its funny how all communities stick to one way of thinking. Ask the mr2 guys and they will hate on the safc. Talk to the supra guys and they will swear by the mapecu, go to the subaru guys and they will tell you to retune your car because you changed the color of your rims.

I would love to go into more detail, but Im kind of holding back for two reasons.
1. for some reason these types of debates get deleted on here faster then you can type them
2. Regardless of what I say, I think you will just come back with some kind of reply that shows the 3rd gen motor is touched by the hand of god.

Dont get me wrong, Id rock a 3rd gen motor in a heat beat. Anything is better then the ****ty AFM based EFI and the peashooter turbo. But change those two things, and the playing field is level for both motors.

Yes, I believe more than most on thinking outside the box.....that will become a bit more evident in the next few weeks.

For the most part, when using an SAFC to control BIGGER injectors on the GEN2, it usually doesnt end well. I know you use the SAFC in your GEN2 Art, but you arent controlling bigger injectors with it.

Art there is no need to "hold back." I will not shoot down a valid idea no matter the setup, ESPECIALLY if it works. Progress in the community is not made by holding back. I agree there are A LOT of criers and nay sayers amongst the 3sgte community...GEN2 and GEN3, 5s, 7a, etc. alike, I am not one of them. If someone is willing to try something new, I am always all for it....and eagerly await the results. I am also not afraid of trying new things on my own car, whcih again.....will be very evident in the next few weeks. Threw trail and error are how most things are accomplished/perfected.