Gear Ratios Options

[BonzaiCelica]

I was wondering what the purpose of the final drive gear ratio?

also what is this? http://auctions.nengun.com/item/k113042803

[Edophus]

I was wondering what the purpose of the final drive gear ratio?

also what is this? http://auctions.nengun.com/item/k113042803

the final drive ratio is the final gear multiplier before the torque gets to the wheels, increasin the final drive, shortens the gear ratios decreasing top speed in each gear but increasing wheel torque, decreasing it lengthens the gears increasing speed in each gear at the cost of wheel torque, the gear spacing however remains unchanged.

That link is the output shaft and ring gear, plus oil pump gear, that is the final drive, that set above is for an e56 gearbox, not the s series gearbox's that comes with most celica's, the e56 only came on superstrut equiped gen 6's up until august 1995 at which point they changed to s54 gearboxes on those. So quite hard to come by.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jan 13, 2010 - 5:41 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

thanks edophus. So do you think the gearing for the 3rd and 4th gen 3sge are perfectly matched to the engine? I noticed that the type r and rsx have high final drive gear ratio about 4.7 as apposed to the s54 having 4.176. Then again, you said it helps to increase torque, and we all know honda's vtec engine design has no torque whatsoever.

[Edophus]

thanks edophus. So do you think the gearing for the 3rd and 4th gen 3sge are perfectly matched to the engine? I noticed that the type r and rsx have high final drive gear ratio about 4.7 as apposed to the s54 having 4.176. Then again, you said it helps to increase torque, and we all know honda's vtec engine design has no torque whatsoever.

yeah, but being serious the honda's have a higher rpm ceiling, you have to think about gearing in relation to the engines power band, so with the stock rev limiter of a 3s-ge at 7400, if it has a final drive of around 4.7 but otherwise stock ratio's the car will be neutered in terms of performance because although you've increased wheel torque, you've chopped off a chunk of gear speed, so having to shift much earlier. Without increasing the rev limit, the stock gear ratios are about right, maybe a little on the long side, but not bad, the spacing could be better, but thats just a compromise for road use. I suggest looking at mfactorys website, they have a great gear calculator, you can punch in differnet final drives, rev limits and wheel sizes etc to visualize how it all relates.

I actually have an e56, and one of those final drives you've linked above, but i am combining this with an 8000rpm rev limit, so i'm increasing torque to the wheels, but the increased rev limit means i'm only losing a few mph potential from each gear vs stock, so keeping it balanced.

[Mstoochn]

the S54 also cruises on the HWY at 3500RPM the RSX cruises at 2600

[pittfirefighter]

camry e153 ftw

[Edophus]

the S54 also cruises on the HWY at 3500RPM the RSX cruises at 2600

thats a 6 speed right? handy to have an extra gear for cruising indeed.

the camry e153 is good for sure for a v6, or 3s-gte converted car but imo would be wasted on an NA 3s-ge cause who needs a top speed of 180mph + when you dont probably dont have enough power to even hit 150mph, its just wasting wheel torque, unless your going for fuel economy that is in which case it makes sense. My e56 with 4.9 final drive gives me a top speed of 141mph which is plenty for me.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Jan 14, 2010 - 5:28 AM

[Mstoochn]

best idealistic trans i can think of for an NA 3s/5s would be a 96-99 s54 with the s51 5th gear for lower rpm crusing speed (higher top speed) and the LSD from an e52/56

E153 in a N/A car would be a dragg

[Edophus]

best idealistic trans i can think of for an NA 3s/5s would be a 96-99 s54 with the s51 5th gear for lower rpm crusing speed (higher top speed) and the LSD from an e52/56

E153 in a N/A car would be a dragg

for road use yeah that probably pretty good, it would help if fourth was actually a little longer too, i find theres already a big enough gap between 4th and 5th that means as soon as your in 5th all acceleration dies until you get a bit higher up the revs, at which point aero kills

for track though the e56 with 4.9 final drive puts the wheel torque up to about the same as a v6 conversion but in 3rd/4th/5th the torques hitting the ground at higher gear speeds so should make for a quicker car, fuel economy is gonna suffer though but its cool its a track car

[BonzaiCelica]

i just looked up this gear ratio calculator. can anybody explain why the top speed is so high, shouldnt the celica have a higher top speed? I have the integra type r specs on the left and the 3sge beams redtop specs on the right, not sure if the tire size and redline are right for the 3sge redtop specs....

http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index...h&Compare=1

[BonzaiCelica]

anybody ^

[azian_advanced]

i just looked up this gear ratio calculator. can anybody explain why the top speed is so high, shouldnt the celica have a higher top speed?

not sure what you're asking here exactly..

are you referring to the actual top speed of the car? or the speedo gauge limit?

[Rusty]

Im a bit baffled about the e56 being able go have a higher top speed: S54, E56 & E154
since according to that, they are they same in areas? typo somewhere?
the E56-04C should have a top speed 269 km/h (according to the above site)

Bonzai, I'm not sure sorry, the honda does have a higher rpm limiter??

[BonzaiCelica]

useless and incorrect information....

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 27, 2017 - 7:23 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

I got the information from this link : http://www.rubydist.com/Family/Power.html

A second way to improve acceleration is to put a higher (numerically) ratio final drive in the vehicle. The torque available at the drive wheels is the engine torque multiplied by the transmission ratio multiplied by the final drive ratio.
Let's just use some hypothetical numbers to make the math easy. Let's say for an example that the engine has 200 lb-ft of torque all across the usable speed range (a gross oversimplification); let's have a final drive ratio of 3:1, a rolling radius of 1.25' (15" radius, 30" diameter tire); and let's say that the transmission ratios are 3:1 (1st), 2:1 (2nd), 1.5:1 (3rd), 1:1 (4th), and .75:1 (5th).
-So, the torque available at drive wheels in first gear is 200 (engine torque) x 3 (first gear ratio) x 3 (final drive ratio) = 1800 lb-ft. (The force at the point where the drive wheels contact the road is a total of 1800 lb-ft / 1.25 ft (rolling radius) = 1440 lb.) If we change the final drive ratio to 4:1, the first gear torque will be 200 x 3 (first gear ratio) x 4 (final drive ratio) = 2400 lb-ft.
This is a 33% increase in drive wheel torque, and it will result in dramatically improved acceleration. (It will also increase engine speed on the highway, resulting in lower fuel mileage, increased noise & engine wear, and a lowered top speed of the vehicle.) The final drive ratio has no effect on the horsepower of the vehicle, but it does affect the torque available to the drive wheels.

Stock S54 Gear Ratios:

1st : 3.285
2nd: 1.960
3rd: 1.322
4th: 1.028
5th: .820
Final Drive: 4.176

Using this equation, (engine torque) x (first gear ratio) x (final drive ratio) = # of pounds. Then # of pounds / rolling tire radius in feet = gives you # of wheel torque.

I am using my current 215/45R17 tire size = 2.06 ft in diameter.

Final Drive 4.176 (Stock S54) = 1012.21 pounds

Final Drive 4.562 (96-2000 Rav4 E250) = 1105.78 pounds

Final Drive 4.933 (96-2000 Rav4 E250F) = 1195.70 pounds

Increase in torque from 4.176 - 4.529 is 9.24%.
Increase in torque from 4.562 - 4.933 is 8.92%
Increase in torque from 4.176 - 4.933 is 18.14%

Which means a 4.933 final drive in your s54 transmission will gain 27 ft lb torque + 152 = 179 ft lb tq


This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Oct 16, 2017 - 5:32 AM

[azian_advanced]

i think you have the general idea.. but just remember how this upgrade would affect the car's speed.





and to think the S54 shift points couldn't get any closer than it already is...
imo, not a worthy mod unless you live in a very populated city/town with a lot of traffic. you'll only SAVE fuel with this stop & go type of driving, but once you're on the freeway or highway, say goodbye to your mpg's.

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Sep 6, 2011 - 11:54 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

no I am very well aware of the shorter gears that come with a higher final drive. Better acceleration/torque but suffer in fuel economy. This set up is best for track. That's why removing stock fuel cut and moving it up to near 8,000 rpm is ideal with beams engine.



This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 7, 2011 - 12:48 AM

[Ted95]

no I am very well aware of the shorter gears that come with a higher final drive. Better acceleration/torque but suffer in fuel economy. This set up is best for track. That's why removing stock fuel cut and moving it up to near 8,000 rpm is ideal with beams engine.

So would you say that the s54 is better for the quarter then e153? Because its short geared.. Jw, debating e153 for my 3s

[mkernz22]

no I am very well aware of the shorter gears that come with a higher final drive. Better acceleration/torque but suffer in fuel economy. This set up is best for track. That's why removing stock fuel cut and moving it up to near 8,000 rpm is ideal with beams engine.

So would you say that the s54 is better for the quarter then e153? Because its short geared.. Jw, debating e153 for my 3s

The s54 is a lot better for the quarter because of the short gearing. It's more of a 0-120mph transmission whereas the e153 is more of a 40-160mph transmission.

[BonzaiCelica]

someone help me put this to rest... so does the c series transmission final drive transfer over to our s54 transmission. According to these calculations they do :



following videos for proof :





also just the origin of me discussing this topic : http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...78064&st=80

This is quoted by a 6gc member via email :

Very interesting I have learned something new about the ring and pinion compatability between the S and C series transmission. However dont get so cocky yet lol... read on and you'll see that there is nothing in that thread which shows why that trans seems to be geared lower/shorter then a stock 6th gen GT. If anything it would be geared longer... which is what u where saying right?

If not then then yes it is possible ur car is geared higher/longer then a stock gt but i doubt its that of the custom work and probably because that trans is NOT an S54 but an S51... if it is an S54 then its the 71/18 = 3.94444 version. But this would lead to better performance since it would take advantage of your higher redline as well as the increase in power and torque. It might also lead to better fuel economy.

"The 4.176 S54 has 17 teeth on the output shaft driven gear and 71 teeth on the ring gear."
These are the s54's that are in the gt 6th gens.

"The Corolla's C59 uses a 67 tooth ring gear with a 17 tooth drive gear for 3.941. This is the perfect match for the S54's 17 tooth drive gear."

"So this gives the S54 with 17 teeth these possible differential gear ratios: 3.941, 4.058, and 4.176"

smaller the number the higher the gear.

so if you had the c59 ring gear then your car would be geared higher.

"It might be possible to use the 19 tooth output shaft from the C150 in the S series transmission, but that compatibility has not been proven. You'd also have to press the gears off each output shaft, which can be time consuming or expensive. These are only possibilities, not actualities. Gear lash between the output shaft pinion gear and the ring gear will be affected if you change one without changing the other. The gear lash may be too great for your particular application, like if you switched to a 67 tooth ring gear when the pinion gear was designed for a 71 tooth, and such. Compatibility has not been proven with such ring gears in the S transmissions as gear lash must be considered and measured."

I find it unlikely, but not impossible someone would have gone through this trouble. If they did however it would still lead to a higher final drive as "C150 3.545 1.904 1.310 0.969 0.815 Diff: 3.526" Still higher then stock.

In fact looking at the numbers on that thread the s54 in the 6th gens has the lowest final drive of all of the options.

.... and then i saw ur post all the way down at the bottom.

"lets not forget the C160 and C60 final drive gear ratio. I have a 4.529 final drive gear ratio currently in my S54 Helical LSD transmission. Greater acceleration!! "

So your saying someone pressed the gears of of each output shaft and swapped out the output shaft and ring gear from a C160 or C60 trans into that transmission I sold you... Perhaps but ill believe it when i see pictures of the ring and pinion gear.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Jul 9, 2012 - 1:03 AM