Turbo Beams? Options

[Espo]

Alright, I've run into a dilemma here. I was under the impression that the 3S-GTE was a red top beams engine, and was planning on swapping that into my ST later next year.

Now, I saw someone's thread in the general discussion forum and it seems the beams is only a 3S-GE, but the 4th generation of the 3S engine.

However, toyota engine code has been explained (as I understand it) as (Engine generation #)(Letter representing engine family)-(features, I.E. G being for performance, T for Turbo, E meaning EFI) so wouldn't this make the beams a 4S-GE...? I'm confused.

Nonetheless, I'm curious as to whether a 3S-GTE Red Top BEAMS was ever produced, or if turboing a beams is possible/practical as compared to just swapping in a 3rd gen 3S-GTE. I wanna hit 300-350whp fairly soon after my swap. I've been doing a lot of reading into the 3S and beams, but clearly I was understanding, lol.

Thanks in advance for any info/help.

[D-Man]

edit: OP not necessary. (i find it clutters things)

inaccurate. note that some things are "enthusiast labeled"; especialy when you get into the different "names" of turbochargers used between the various generations of the standard 3sgte. 4th gen 3sgte was the Cadalina. (witch was only installed in some minivan in japan )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldina

here ya go!

http://www.6gc.net/information
http://www.6gc.net/information/3
http://www.6gc.net/information/7
http://www.6gc.net/information/13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_3S-GE_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_S_engine




hope this clears things up a bit. (REMEMBER!! WIKI and HOWSTUFFWORKS.com are you're biggest allies)

This post has been edited by D-Man: Apr 1, 2010 - 3:37 PM

[njccmd2002]

very difficult to do it, due to lack of suport and tuning, somebody is supercharging it, but its plenty bucks. go to the beams owners group of mr2.com

[Espo]

edit: OP not necessary. (i find it clutters things)

inaccurate. note that some things are "enthusiast labeled"; especialy when you get into the different "names" of turbochargers used between the various generations of the standard 3sgte. 4th gen 3sgte was the Cadalina. (witch was only installed in some minivan in japan )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caldina

here ya go!

http://www.6gc.net/information
http://www.6gc.net/information/3
http://www.6gc.net/information/7
http://www.6gc.net/information/13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_3S-GE_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_S_engine




hope this clears things up a bit. (REMEMBER!! WIKI and HOWSTUFFWORKS.com are you're biggest allies)

Ha, re-reading the info articles now that I know a tad more makes things make a little more sense now. Thanks.

Edit: According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_S_engine

The 3S-GTE that went into the Caldina GT-T/GT-Four was (obviously) turboed, and puts out more power than the Celica GT-Four 3S-GTE - is that a turboed red top or black top, maybe?

This post has been edited by Espo: Apr 2, 2010 - 2:35 AM

[D-Man]

no prob man. it's how i learned

back to discussion:


redtop/blacktop/greytop is another one of those 'enthusiast invented words"

it reffers to the beams motors; however all beams motors were n/a. (not that they stay that way )



REDTOP:

The fourth generation 3S-GE, also known as the BEAMS 3S-GE began production in 1997. The first version was equipped with VVT-i and produced 197 bhp (147 kW, 200 PS) @ 7000 rpm. It was available in a few models sold only in Japan - the MR2 G and G-Limited, the Celica ST202 SS-II and SS-III and the Caldina. BEAMS is an acronym which stands for Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System.

BLACKTOP

In 1998 a second version was released with dual VVT-i (variable timing on both the intake and exhaust cams), titanium valves, battery-backed injectors and a slightly higher compression ratio (11:1 instead of 10.5:1). This engine powered the Altezza RS200 and produced around 207 bhp (154 kW, 210 PS) @ 7600 rpm.

(note that they did not add a turbocharger)
GREYTOP

The "Grey Top" BEAMS 3S-GE was an available engine option in the Rav4 and Caldina GT in Japan. Even though the valve cover on this engine is black, it is referred to as "Grey Top" due to the grey intake plenum to differentiate it from the Dual-VVTi "Black Top" in the Altezza. Power output is 177 bhp (132 kW, 180 PS) @ 6600 rpm.

now the issue with running F/I on the beams motors is the level of difficulty to turbo/supercharge due to tuning issues. i dont know much about people running nitrous oxide on them. i would imagine it'd be a similar issue; but due to the fact that it last for such a short time (and most all N/O setups are a bit off tune-wise) i dont think it'd do too much damage. (because our s class engines have been known to handle chemical induction on a regular basis w/o issue)




as for the most (powerful?) advanced 3s-gte motor to date being installed in a minivan... IDFK what to tell ya. it makes me cuss every time i think about it. it was only sold in japan, and they were rare-rare from what i understand. i have a buddy over there; and he's yet to spot one.




you're thoughts?

[Ted95]

beams compression is to high for boost, srry bud.. and jus go for the 3sgte, ive drivin both and consequently _Jim_ dropped off my 3sgte to my dads shop this afternoon =]

[Espo]

So basically if I were to turbo a beams, even more work would have to be done in getting forged internals to lower the compression in order for boost not to destroy me. Great.

@D-Man: I don't plan on running n/o on whatever my swap is, but it's good to know if I ever resort to that I'm relatively safe.

In any case, so much for that pretty red engine sitting under my hood ): Maybe I'll just make the 3rd gen 3S-GTE look somewhat like a beams (:

[SwissFerdi]

as for the most (powerful?) advanced 3s-gte motor to date being installed in a minivan... IDFK what to tell ya. it makes me cuss every time i think about it. it was only sold in japan, and they were rare-rare from what i understand. i have a buddy over there; and he's yet to spot one.

And yet you can get a 4th gen for cheaper than a 3rd gen...don't ask me how. I've seen a 4th gen on Craigslist for 1k.

[CelicaST_CALI]

agreed^^ rpmgarages st215 clips are much cheaper than st205 clips..

[Ted95]

agreed^^ rpmgarages st215 clips are much cheaper than st205 clips..

ya butttttt the 4th gens r more of a pain to do the wiring harness and less power.. u can get a beams motor for jus about the same price as a 3rd gen st205.

Espo, if ur lookin to buy a st205 hit up _Jim_ thats where i got mines from, he will help u out and direct u in the right direction to fit ur budget and ur goals.

[Espo]

agreed^^ rpmgarages st215 clips are much cheaper than st205 clips..

ya butttttt the 4th gens r more of a pain to do the wiring harness and less power.. u can get a beams motor for jus about the same price as a 3rd gen st205.

Espo, if ur lookin to buy a st205 hit up _Jim_ thats where i got mines from, he will help u out and direct u in the right direction to fit ur budget and ur goals.

Well, my swap is yet a ways off, it's gonna take me about a year of saving to build up to the $6k mark everyone seems to say is the norm for a 3S-GTE swap. That's after this summer with my new rims, tires, hood, and interior toys.

[Ted95]

agreed^^ rpmgarages st215 clips are much cheaper than st205 clips..

ya butttttt the 4th gens r more of a pain to do the wiring harness and less power.. u can get a beams motor for jus about the same price as a 3rd gen st205.

Espo, if ur lookin to buy a st205 hit up _Jim_ thats where i got mines from, he will help u out and direct u in the right direction to fit ur budget and ur goals.

Well, my swap is yet a ways off, it's gonna take me about a year of saving to build up to the $6k mark everyone seems to say is the norm for a 3S-GTE swap. That's after this summer with my new rims, tires, hood, and interior toys.

well i personally dk if its goin to b a 6k project, so far im in the whole $1800. im jus buying things peeice by peice pay check to pay check as i go. the biggest thing to me is jus having the engine in ur possession so u can go from there and work on it lil by lil. from the way Jim explained it to me its very simpe to do and i honestly dont think its gunna run me 6k, i would think roughly 3 or 4 totally.

[D-Man]

So basically if I were to turbo a beams, even more work would have to be done in getting forged internals to lower the compression in order for boost not to destroy me. Great.

@D-Man: I don't plan on running n/o on whatever my swap is, but it's good to know if I ever resort to that I'm relatively safe.

In any case, so much for that pretty red engine sitting under my hood ): Maybe I'll just make the 3rd gen 3S-GTE look somewhat like a beams (:

the populairty of the BEAMS engine is that it's about the most powerful n/a swap you can do. so if you wanna get the power w/o the gremlins and extra issues of having a FI vehicle, then it's FTW. as for topline power, you're kinda outta luck.

as for the most (powerful?) advanced 3s-gte motor to date being installed in a minivan... IDFK what to tell ya. it makes me cuss every time i think about it. it was only sold in japan, and they were rare-rare from what i understand. i have a buddy over there; and he's yet to spot one.

And yet you can get a 4th gen for cheaper than a 3rd gen...don't ask me how. I've seen a 4th gen on Craigslist for 1k.

and when you need a new part, then you're waiting to have it ordered from japan

but that is a good deal. go buy me one!

well i personally dk if its goin to b a 6k project, so far im in the whole $1800. im jus buying things peeice by peice pay check to pay check as i go. the biggest thing to me is jus having the engine in ur possession so u can go from there and work on it lil by lil. from the way Jim explained it to me its very simpe to do and i honestly dont think its gunna run me 6k, i would think roughly 3 or 4 totally.

that's the BEST thing you could do. make sure you got that extra cash for those gremlins!! i see far too many people trying to cheap out on the swaps; get into it, and then wind up quitting and selling everything off.

[Ted95]

So basically if I were to turbo a beams, even more work would have to be done in getting forged internals to lower the compression in order for boost not to destroy me. Great.

@D-Man: I don't plan on running n/o on whatever my swap is, but it's good to know if I ever resort to that I'm relatively safe.

In any case, so much for that pretty red engine sitting under my hood ): Maybe I'll just make the 3rd gen 3S-GTE look somewhat like a beams (:

the populairty of the BEAMS engine is that it's about the most powerful n/a swap you can do. so if you wanna get the power w/o the gremlins and extra issues of having a FI vehicle, then it's FTW. as for topline power, you're kinda outta luck.

as for the most (powerful?) advanced 3s-gte motor to date being installed in a minivan... IDFK what to tell ya. it makes me cuss every time i think about it. it was only sold in japan, and they were rare-rare from what i understand. i have a buddy over there; and he's yet to spot one.

And yet you can get a 4th gen for cheaper than a 3rd gen...don't ask me how. I've seen a 4th gen on Craigslist for 1k.

and when you need a new part, then you're waiting to have it ordered from japan

but that is a good deal. go buy me one!

well i personally dk if its goin to b a 6k project, so far im in the whole $1800. im jus buying things peeice by peice pay check to pay check as i go. the biggest thing to me is jus having the engine in ur possession so u can go from there and work on it lil by lil. from the way Jim explained it to me its very simpe to do and i honestly dont think its gunna run me 6k, i would think roughly 3 or 4 totally.

that's the BEST thing you could do. make sure you got that extra cash for those gremlins!! i see far too many people trying to cheap out on the swaps; get into it, and then wind up quitting and selling everything off.

^whats the best way? savin 6k or goin peice by peice like i am?

[D-Man]

peice by peice works, but make sure you're not cheaping out on anything!!

for example, i sold most of a turbo kit to someone a few years back, and told him that the turbo had been sitting, needed to be rebuilt.

he didn't rebuild it.

:engine-poof:



saving 6k then going for you're target gaurentee's that you are more picky on what you buy; you'll save more money that way, and be more likely to just get a clip- and have EVERYTHING and then leftovers (that you can sell and make ya moneys back)

peice by peice = motivation
all at once = cheaper and more effective

[Ted95]

peice by peice works, but make sure you're not cheaping out on anything!!

for example, i sold most of a turbo kit to someone a few years back, and told him that the turbo had been sitting, needed to be rebuilt.

he didn't rebuild it.

:engine-poof:



saving 6k then going for you're target gaurentee's that you are more picky on what you buy; you'll save more money that way, and be more likely to just get a clip- and have EVERYTHING and then leftovers (that you can sell and make ya moneys back)

peice by peice = motivation
all at once = cheaper and more effective

ya that is true, but for me i bought the whole engine set minus the top mount intercooler, so basically wat i have to do is get a new clutch, FMIC and minor refreshments such as some gaskets and plugs and im good to go, 30-50k isnt that much for a toyota motor and i dont think anything would b dead really.

[njccmd2002]

no gremlims with the beams

[D-Man]

ya that is true, but for me i bought the whole engine set minus the top mount intercooler, so basically wat i have to do is get a new clutch, FMIC and minor refreshments such as some gaskets and plugs and im good to go, 30-50k isnt that much for a toyota motor and i dont think anything would b dead really.

well you'll be needing more that that. fuelpump, ecu (or something to correct the fuel flow) and the ect. but you bought big; so that's about the same concept as saving up.

look foward to you're progress, good sir.

no gremlims with the beams

*not as many / less likely

[Ted95]

no gremlims with the beams

u would say that lol

[Ted95]

ya that is true, but for me i bought the whole engine set minus the top mount intercooler, so basically wat i have to do is get a new clutch, FMIC and minor refreshments such as some gaskets and plugs and im good to go, 30-50k isnt that much for a toyota motor and i dont think anything would b dead really.

well you'll be needing more that that. fuelpump, ecu (or something to correct the fuel flow) and the ect. but you bought big; so that's about the same concept as saving up.

look foward to you're progress, good sir.

got that figured out my friend ;] i was out tonight on the ave and was sizing up everything i seen haha my only challenge will b this silver srt4 that moves alright.. other then that it will b a walk in the park lol